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When Global Warming Kills Your God

theatlantic.com

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Re: When Global Warming Kills Your God

#11

Post by yummyfajitas »

themartorana wrote: post #8

I highly doubt that the Yup’ik fishermen are even contributors to global climate change, but we expect them to then completely stop fishing the waters they have fished for decades because of change we're largely to blame for? From forced settlements to fishing bans, we're still forcing our will on indigenous people. Edit: the religious argument does seem a stretch to me, and wouldn't be necessary if common sense was…

The modern regulatory state forces pretty much everyone to do all sorts of things. People are prevented from aging cheese less than 30 days, from having sex with people for money, forced to purchase unwanted health insurance, and penalized if they don't rent or purchase a home. A person can own a piece of land for decades, and suddenly wetland regulation or a community action board can prevent them from using that land.

Why is it bad to impose similar burdens on the Yup'ik?

Re: When Global Warming Kills Your God

#12

Post by Pxtl »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #11
themartorana wrote: post #8

I highly doubt that the Yup’ik fishermen are even contributors to global climate change, but we expect them to then completely stop fishing the waters they have fished for decades because of change we're largely to blame for? From forced settlements to fishing bans, we're still forcing our will on indigenous people. Edit: the religious argument does seem a stretch to me, and wouldn't be necessary if common sense was…

The modern regulatory state forces pretty much everyone to do all sorts of things. People are prevented from aging cheese less than 30 days, from having sex with people for money, forced to purchase unwanted health insurance, and penalized if they don't rent or purchase a home. A person can own a piece of land for decades, and suddenly wetland regulation or a community action board can prevent them from using that la…

Indigenous cultures are kind of a special case because of the whole conquest and genocide thing. You can't say "if you don't like it go back to your home country" when it was taken from them.

THe idea is that indigenous groups are supposed to self-govern as much as possible... but there's no way these tiny middle-of-nowhere towns can build up enough infrastructure to run their own federal government.

Re: When Global Warming Kills Your God

#13

Post by Pxtl »

DanBC wrote: post #9
burke wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list doesn't seem to imply that global warming isn't happening; just that people are pretty quick to blame things on it.

That's a great point that needs to be made. Science reporting sucks. Sadly that particular version of the list was created by someone who thinks climate change is bunk and the list is a tool used to deny climate change.

It doesn't need to be made about the arctic circle anyways. While we can argue until the cows come how about hurricanes and the California drought and things like that, there is no ambiguity about the arctic - it has severely warmed and this is having drastic changes on local weather and ecosystems. Salmon aren't an isolated case, every species up there has been severely screwed up.

Re: When Global Warming Kills Your God

#15

Post by mikro2nd »

gambiting wrote: post #4

Globar Warming is definitely contributing to this process, but I think some people are definitely trying to fight natural processes which would have happened anyway. Sure, it's sad that a village or a road got taken by water - but that would have happened eventually anyway, right? In Poland there used to be a church build right by the sea on a cliff - but the sea has eroded the cliff(as seas do), and now only one wal…

> there are even people who say it's "work of god" that the wall is still standing

I find it amusing that those same people would probably not be too receptive to a comment that it was the "work of god" that caused the erosion of the cliff and consequent collapse of the other walls of the church.

Re: When Global Warming Kills Your God

#16

Post by tbrownaw »

Pxtl wrote: post #12
yummyfajitas wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern regulatory state forces pretty much everyone to do all sorts of things. People are prevented from aging cheese less than 30 days, from having sex with people for money, forced to purchase unwanted health insurance, and penalized if they don't rent or purchase a home. A person can own a piece of land for decades, and suddenly wetland regulation or a community action board can prevent them from using that la…

Indigenous cultures are kind of a special case because of the whole conquest and genocide thing. You can't say "if you don't like it go back to your home country" when it was taken from them. THe idea is that indigenous groups are supposed to self-govern as much as possible... but there's no way these tiny middle-of-nowhere towns can build up enough infrastructure to run their own federal government.

You can't say "if you don't like it go back to your home country" when it was taken from them.

You also can't say that if the place with the obnoxious rules is your home country. Which tends to be the majority of people.

"If you don't like it leave" works equally well in both cases tho. ("Equally well" meaning "not very" of course...)

Re: When Global Warming Kills Your God

#17

Post by yummyfajitas »

Pxtl wrote: post #12
yummyfajitas wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern regulatory state forces pretty much everyone to do all sorts of things. People are prevented from aging cheese less than 30 days, from having sex with people for money, forced to purchase unwanted health insurance, and penalized if they don't rent or purchase a home. A person can own a piece of land for decades, and suddenly wetland regulation or a community action board can prevent them from using that la…

Indigenous cultures are kind of a special case because of the whole conquest and genocide thing. You can't say "if you don't like it go back to your home country" when it was taken from them. THe idea is that indigenous groups are supposed to self-govern as much as possible... but there's no way these tiny middle-of-nowhere towns can build up enough infrastructure to run their own federal government.

My ancestors are Sicilian, Greek, German and a bunch of other things. I've never met an ancestor who was born outside the US. Can you say to me, "if you don't like it go back to Sicily"?

(Note that I speak no Italian outside the kitchen and I doubt Sicily would let me immigrate.)

Re: When Global Warming Kills Your God

#18

Post by briandear »

themartorana wrote: post #8

I highly doubt that the Yup’ik fishermen are even contributors to global climate change, but we expect them to then completely stop fishing the waters they have fished for decades because of change we're largely to blame for? From forced settlements to fishing bans, we're still forcing our will on indigenous people. Edit: the religious argument does seem a stretch to me, and wouldn't be necessary if common sense was…

"We're largely to blame for.." Are we?

If humans cause climate change and industrialization began around 1850, then logically, there'd be an exponential and consistent increase of global temperatures. Al Gore himself said that, in five years, the polar ice cap would be ice-free.. and he said that 7 years ago. There hasn't been warming for almost 18 years, yet CO2 emissions (especially from China are still increasing.)

The facts are very clear: CO2 increased, temperatures have not. Another fact: the climate changed long before humans were around to drive Escalades.

The AGW movement is nothing more than an anti-capitalist false flag with a professed desire for wealth redistribution. Al Gore, for example loves the environmental movement so much because he became a multi-billionaire as it's Chicken Little. Those who still follow the religion of human-caused global warming are like a bunch of elderly Soviets nostalgic about Stalin's First Five Year Plan.

Ottmar Edenhofer, a UN official with the IPCC said, "One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole." In that same interview he made the case that "climate change" policy was more of an anti-globalization policy than actual environmental policy.

Greenpeace cofounder Dr. Patrick Moore, who would presumably know more about environmentalism than almost anyone reading this, rejects the climate-anti-capitalism hysteria that has co-opted the "old" environmentalism of reducing pollution, whaling, overfishing, nuclear waste and other, more pure protections of our environment.

Let the downvoting begin! I am always amazed that within such a smart bunch as HN readers, that there is still a large number that ignore critical scientific analysis and instead let political or ideological beliefs cloud their otherwise rational minds. It's almost religiously intense. Rarely do I see a balanced debate on the subject of human-caused climate change. It's like telling Christians that Jesus wasn't resurrected.

Re: When Global Warming Kills Your God

#19

Post by briandear »

DanBC wrote: post #9
burke wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The list doesn't seem to imply that global warming isn't happening; just that people are pretty quick to blame things on it.

That's a great point that needs to be made. Science reporting sucks. Sadly that particular version of the list was created by someone who thinks climate change is bunk and the list is a tool used to deny climate change.

Actually everyone agrees that the climate is changing. The debate is over whether humans cause it.

Re: When Global Warming Kills Your God

#20

Post by adrianN »

briandear wrote: post #18
themartorana wrote: post #8

I highly doubt that the Yup’ik fishermen are even contributors to global climate change, but we expect them to then completely stop fishing the waters they have fished for decades because of change we're largely to blame for? From forced settlements to fishing bans, we're still forcing our will on indigenous people. Edit: the religious argument does seem a stretch to me, and wouldn't be necessary if common sense was…

"We're largely to blame for.." Are we? If humans cause climate change and industrialization began around 1850, then logically, there'd be an exponential and consistent increase of global temperatures. Al Gore himself said that, in five years, the polar ice cap would be ice-free.. and he said that 7 years ago. There hasn't been warming for almost 18 years, yet CO2 emissions (especially from China are still increasing.…

The climate is a very complicated system. Saying that there has to be a consistent exponential increase in temperature is a gross oversimplification. There are all kinds of buffers and feedback systems that govern global temperatures.
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