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Rethinking the origins of the universe

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Re: Rethinking the origins of the universe

#51
post #39

Ethan Siegel just posted a detailed response to this. https://medium.com/starts-with-a-bang/yes-virginia-black-hol...

I don't think that is a response to this work. That is dated February 1. He links to this paper's author, Laura Mersini-Houghton, but he links to a paper and blog post of hers from January. Reading that blog post (http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2014/01/if-it-quacks-like-b...), what she says seems to be in contradiction with the more recent paper she wrote (http://arxiv.org/abs/arXiv:1409.1837).

In her blog post from January, she says:

"What Hawking is saying is essentially that he believes that a matter collapse only leads to a temporary apparent horizon but not to an eternal event horizon. That is an opinion which is shared by many of his colleagues (including me) and there is nothing new about this idea whatsoever."

But in her more recent paper, she says:

"More specifically, we find that collapsing stars slow down their collapse right outside their horizon, while substantially reducing their mass through Hawking radiation. ... The star never crosses its horizon, so neither unitarity nor causality are violated, thereby solving the longstanding information loss paradox. This investigation shows that universally collapsing stars bounce into an expand- ing phase and probably blow up, instead of collapsing to a black hole."

I am not a physicist, but when I read those two statements, they are in contradiction. The first statement says to me: it may not be an absolute horizon, but it is a horizon. The second statement says to me: actually, we never reach any horizon. So I think that the more recent statement means that she has changed her conclusions based on her recent work.

Re: Rethinking the origins of the universe

#52
post #49

Another member of the peanut gallery here. I've not been bold enough to make any claim in writing (it would probably be full of misconceptions), but the black hole hypothesis always seemed a bit half-baked, and I've definitely said words to that effect in conversation. In the hypothesis Einstein's field equations obviously break down, and instead of acknowledging that any explanation will be enormously difficult to t…

My understanding of what Laura Mersini-Houghton's paper is claiming is that stars cannot collapse into black holes, but they can get damned close. So those things that we have observed are not "black holes", but things that are damned close. In the paper, she and her co-author write, "Both effects (slowdown and mass-loss) balance such that the evaporating star remains very slightly outside its event horizon."

Even if this paper is correct, I don't think it's warranted to be so smug about people thinking they found black holes. We had a theory, and we had positive evidence for that theory. That's reasonable. If this paper is correct, then it turns out those things are not actually "black holes", but objects "very slightly outside" of being black holes. That's not too bad.

Disclaimer: I am not a physicist.

Re: Rethinking the origins of the universe

#53
post #52
post #49

Another member of the peanut gallery here. I've not been bold enough to make any claim in writing (it would probably be full of misconceptions), but the black hole hypothesis always seemed a bit half-baked, and I've definitely said words to that effect in conversation. In the hypothesis Einstein's field equations obviously break down, and instead of acknowledging that any explanation will be enormously difficult to t…

My understanding of what Laura Mersini-Houghton's paper is claiming is that stars cannot collapse into black holes, but they can get damned close. So those things that we have observed are not "black holes", but things that are damned close. In the paper, she and her co-author write, "Both effects (slowdown and mass-loss) balance such that the evaporating star remains very slightly outside its event horizon." Even if…

What is an example of this positive evidence?

Also is it at all plausible that the center of the galaxy is evaporating slightly outside its event horizon in this way?

Anyway I'm not sure that the two of us are going to answer any of these questions without some help.

Re: Rethinking the origins of the universe

#54
I think that interested people should just read the abstract, introduction and conclusions of the actual paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/arXiv:1409.1837

You will not understand the full implications of it (well, unless you are an astrophysicist), and I didn't bother with the meat of the paper (because I am also not an astrophysicist). But the abstract, introduction and conclusion are rather understandable, and far less hyperbolic than the press release. And even though I can't understand all of it, I'd much rather get a misunderstanding from the original source material, then get a compounded misunderstanding from a press-release.

Re: Rethinking the origins of the universe

#56
post #53
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of what Laura Mersini-Houghton's paper is claiming is that stars cannot collapse into black holes, but they can get damned close. So those things that we have observed are not "black holes", but things that are damned close. In the paper, she and her co-author write, "Both effects (slowdown and mass-loss) balance such that the evaporating star remains very slightly outside its event horizon." Even if…

What is an example of this positive evidence? Also is it at all plausible that the center of the galaxy is evaporating slightly outside its event horizon in this way? Anyway I'm not sure that the two of us are going to answer any of these questions without some help.

We have observed things in our universe which match our expectations of black holes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole#Observational_eviden...

That we have observed something is not in dispute, as I understand it. What's in dispute is what, exactly, these things are.

Re: Rethinking the origins of the universe

#57

I'm not at all acquainted with astrophysics but I remember seeing an article state that there was a different physicist who proved this same thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7191324 A quick google shows his response to this: https://twitter.com/abhasmitra/status/514804101024997376 His response: "Hawking radiation is unproven. And particle physicists are not aware that even without any Quantum Mechanics, cl…

>But phys.org never highlighted my research which is infinitely more accurate than [...]

>The lead author of this paper has CAMBRIDGE AFFILIATION.

>So phys.org is glad to highlight an inconsistent and yet unpublished paper by ignoring my series of my exact and original papers on the same topic."

welcome to modern science. It is a professional guild like a guild of shoemakers of Middle Age Europe cities with about the same rules. Or like another my friend (former second-rate professor from a first rate university :) put it - it is a mafia, at every level. Researchers of the highest tier universities publish in the highest tier journals, researchers of the next tier - in the next tier journals, ... A good physicist should be able to understand the laws of Nature behind such formation :)

Re: Rethinking the origins of the universe

#58
post #49

Another member of the peanut gallery here. I've not been bold enough to make any claim in writing (it would probably be full of misconceptions), but the black hole hypothesis always seemed a bit half-baked, and I've definitely said words to that effect in conversation. In the hypothesis Einstein's field equations obviously break down, and instead of acknowledging that any explanation will be enormously difficult to t…

> The other thing that sets off my hand-wave-o-meter is the pretending that we are somehow already observing these things "new telescope detects hints of black holes" or have concluded that they exist without any positive evidence.

Actually, the evidence is pretty good. We have orbital velocities around the mass at the center of our galaxy that cannot exist unless there is a very massive, very dense object at one focus of the ellipses:

http://astro.uchicago.edu/cosmus/projects/UCLA_GCG/

This doesn't prove anything by itself, it only reduces the number of possible explanations.

We also have general relativity, which basically says that, once you exceed a certain spacetime curvature, you enter into the realm where black holes (or something like them) are inevitable.

The observations are very good, and the theory has stood the test of time, producing very reliable and consistent results. None of this is conclusive, there are difficulties with general relativity at the smallest scales, but the black hole idea is a reasonable conclusion to draw based on both theory and evidence.

> In the hypothesis Einstein's field equations obviously break down ...

General relativity doesn't break down for a black hole per se, only the realm inside it. If we observe phenomena from a great distance up to the event horizon, GR reliably predicts the outcomes. Within the black hole, i.e. between the event horizon and the hypothetical singularity at the center, we have a the region for which claims like "all physics breaks down" are appropriate.

But the fact that general relativity cannot explain everything isn't by itself a reason to doubt what it can explain. But it is a reason to look for a more complete theory, one for which GR is a subset. The same can be said about quantum theory -- it also has domains of excellent agreement with observation, and other places where it's less useful.

> ... we seem to have bought into this completely untested idea that matter can continue bending space-time around into a singularity and all that.

But that idea isn't hypothetical, it's pretty easy to see that it falls out of the mathematics. I won't present the general relativity treatment, but here's one from special relativity that's easier to understand. This equation tells us the relationship between space and time in SR:

t' = t √(1-v^2/c^2)

t = time

v = space velocity

c = speed of light

t' = time rate of passage at velocity v relative to velocity 0

Now try increasing v so it equals c (try traveling at the speed of light). See? Time stops, which in SR is roughly equivalent to an infinite curvature in GR.

Photons travel at the speed of light. This means in their frame of reference v = c, and therefore t' = 0. Does this mean that photons don't experience time? That's exactly what it means. In a photon's frame of reference, it's created in an atomic interaction, then it's taking part in another atomic interaction somewhere else, with no intermediate time having passed.

The above example is pretty remarkable when you think about it, but it doesn't mean the laws of physics have broken down, any more than they do at a black hole's even horizon.

Re: Rethinking the origins of the universe

#59
post #53
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of what Laura Mersini-Houghton's paper is claiming is that stars cannot collapse into black holes, but they can get damned close. So those things that we have observed are not "black holes", but things that are damned close. In the paper, she and her co-author write, "Both effects (slowdown and mass-loss) balance such that the evaporating star remains very slightly outside its event horizon." Even if…

What is an example of this positive evidence? Also is it at all plausible that the center of the galaxy is evaporating slightly outside its event horizon in this way? Anyway I'm not sure that the two of us are going to answer any of these questions without some help.

> What is an example of this positive evidence?

Are you asking what observational evidence exists for black holes? There are very massive, very dense objects at the center of most galaxies, objects that by their mass and density fall well inside the theoretical limits for black holes. At the center of our galaxy, there is a very massive, compact object, around which many stars are orbiting, in orbits that reveal the object's mass and approximate size:

http://astro.uchicago.edu/cosmus/projects/UCLA_GCG/

This is pretty good evidence -- if the object weren't within the mass/density realm that allows for black holes, the orbiting stars couldn't approach it as closely as they do without colliding.

Again, this doesn't prove anything, it only supports the idea that black holes are possible, and that our observations agree with that idea.

Re: Rethinking the origins of the universe

#60

This paper claims that black holes can't come into existence, which is subtly different from claiming that they cannot exist. In particular, black holes can exist as long as they've always existed – it's just that new ones can't come into existence. Maybe the universe just has a fixed number of singularities. [I am not a physicist – this just struck me as an inaccurate implication in the article.]

> In particular, black holes can exist as long as they've always existed ...

This doesn't work in physics. If you say they can only exist if they've always existed, then you're obliged to say how they came into existence earlier -- the deep meaning of "always".

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