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Datamining a Flat in Munich

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Re: Datamining a Flat in Munich

#111

Post by goodJobWalrus »

lafar6502 wrote: post #57
tzmudzin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite, as long as we as a society want to protect the minorities. Either you force equal treatment, or things can escalate quite quickly: - basic right of owner to rent property to anyone he likes without explaining the decision (and not to rent to anyone else...) - basic right of hotel owner to accept anyone he choses (and deny access to anyone else) - basic right of restarant manager to accept anyone he chooses…

Somehow I expected first response to mention Nazis... Anyway, renting a flat is just a contract between two people, not a public service. You need to trust the other person and feel comfortable with giving them access to your property. I dont care about minorities or majorities - its my property and I'm the one who's entitled to do anything with it. Laws won't make me accept _any_ offer if I can choose the best one f…

Sure, but if you base your comfortableness with giving the access to your property to someone, not on their rental history, or credit info or interview, but on the fact that they are say, black, you are discriminating, and you are probably a racist.

Re: Datamining a Flat in Munich

#112

Post by icebraining »

tzmudzin wrote: post #53
lafar6502 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it a basic right of an owner to rent his property to anyone he likes without explaining the decision (even if the decision is based on racial prejudice)?

Not quite, as long as we as a society want to protect the minorities. Either you force equal treatment, or things can escalate quite quickly: - basic right of owner to rent property to anyone he likes without explaining the decision (and not to rent to anyone else...) - basic right of hotel owner to accept anyone he choses (and deny access to anyone else) - basic right of restarant manager to accept anyone he chooses…

Once you step onto this path, it's hard to put hard stop someplace

Not really. You could define some as basic services and deny discrimination on those. Much like e.g. some basic utilities are already prohibited from cutting off supply to debtors while most businesses can.

I'm not saying I agree with not legislating equal treatment, but the slippery slope is not inevitable.

Re: Datamining a Flat in Munich

#113

Post by lafar6502 »

rmc wrote: post #104
lafar6502 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it a basic right of an owner to rent his property to anyone he likes without explaining the decision (even if the decision is based on racial prejudice)?

No. There are countless laws for landlords. e.g. if you rent it to someone, you can't kick them out whenever you want, you can't enter the property whenever you want. Likewise, if you own a shop, you cannot refuse entry to your property based on race/ethnicity. You do not have an absolute right to do whatever you want with your property.

But luckily no law yet can force you to rent your property to someone if you don't want to.

Re: Datamining a Flat in Munich

#114

Post by JoeAltmaier »

lafar6502 wrote: post #51
sauere wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-discrimination laws do not solve any problems, they make them worse. If someone is not willing to hire a person because of their ethnicity/color/sex/age/whatever, a law will not make him do it. Finding an excuse is too easy and it is basically impossible to prove such things in court. I recommend watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzXXvUjg8Fo

Isn't it a basic right of an owner to rent his property to anyone he likes without explaining the decision (even if the decision is based on racial prejudice)?

Yes it seems it is, as long as they landlord receives no federal assistance (in the USA): http://www.lawfirms.com/resources/landlord-and-tenant/tenant...

Re: Datamining a Flat in Munich

#115

Post by lafar6502 »

sgift wrote: post #80
hippich wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why economic laws does not work here? I.e. if certain categories of people comes with certain risk in the eyes of landlords, this should be reflected in price, and who don't want to have to deal with adjusting price for risks should loose to once who are more flexible?

High demand, low supply. A landlord in Munich can ask - more or less - whatever he wants and still find people who are desperate to get a flat. Any flat. For any price.

Of course. Even if all these people were named Hans, age 25, no family and high paid tech jobs, still half of them wouldn't have a place to live. No laws can change the numbers.

Re: Datamining a Flat in Munich

#116

Post by darklajid »

freyfogle wrote: post #11
corv wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link, your site is brilliant!

Thanks, you should tell EVERYONE you know. In seriousness though, while we do try our best (not just in Germany, but eight other countries as well), the situation he describes is one that the internet doesn't do a good job of solving. Basically demand way outstrips supply in cities like Munich. As a result, if you have a good flat or house you want to rent out, really all you need to do is tell 5-10 people and via wo…

Checked out Salz und Brot - Cologne's where I lived for quite some time and where I'd like to return to in the future. Family just didn't make it viable - the rent is just too high/we can't afford it and moved elsewhere.

And just to confirm the craziness the first apartment I checked out in Cologne [1] (for fun, not seriously planning to move atm) requires you to pay 1300 EUR for the kitchen (sure, makes sense), a bit of furniture (common) and - I wonder what they're smoking - the floor (Echtholzboden). You're "buying" the floor in a rented apartment? Look at the pictures. Are you going to take that with you when you move out?

Not sure if that's something you care about, but you mention that this site is a partner of yours. The UI's broken in my browser (Aurora/Firefox Nightly) - if you got contacts that might be something to look into? [2]

1: https://salzundbrot.com/suche/#!search={"f2":1000}&x=1&view=...

2: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1194203/SalzUndBrot.png

Re: Datamining a Flat in Munich

#117

Post by lafar6502 »

goodJobWalrus wrote: post #111
lafar6502 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow I expected first response to mention Nazis... Anyway, renting a flat is just a contract between two people, not a public service. You need to trust the other person and feel comfortable with giving them access to your property. I dont care about minorities or majorities - its my property and I'm the one who's entitled to do anything with it. Laws won't make me accept _any_ offer if I can choose the best one f…

Sure, but if you base your comfortableness with giving the access to your property to someone, not on their rental history, or credit info or interview, but on the fact that they are say, black, you are discriminating, and you are probably a racist.

Maybe i base my decision on flipping a coin? That's certainly not your (or anyone else's) business - the point is I can do that because until I sign a rental contract I'm free to do whatever I want. There's no contract - there's no legal binding between the owner and a 'candidate'. Any obligations, duties and rights start after the deal is made.

Re: Datamining a Flat in Munich

#118

Post by saosebastiao »

lafar6502 wrote: post #113
rmc wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. There are countless laws for landlords. e.g. if you rent it to someone, you can't kick them out whenever you want, you can't enter the property whenever you want. Likewise, if you own a shop, you cannot refuse entry to your property based on race/ethnicity. You do not have an absolute right to do whatever you want with your property.

But luckily no law yet can force you to rent your property to someone if you don't want to.

Actually, yes you can be forced. If you have an open offer to rent, and you refuse a qualified tenant on illegal discriminatory grounds, a judge can force you to hold true to that offer.

Re: Datamining a Flat in Munich

#119

Post by lafar6502 »

saosebastiao wrote: post #118
lafar6502 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But luckily no law yet can force you to rent your property to someone if you don't want to.

Actually, yes you can be forced. If you have an open offer to rent, and you refuse a qualified tenant on illegal discriminatory grounds, a judge can force you to hold true to that offer.

First of all, they'd have to prove I did something illegal. What makes you think so? Hopefully we still have the right to say just "sorry, I changed my mind, the offer is no longer valid" or "I chose another offer, sorry".

Re: Datamining a Flat in Munich

#120

Post by freyfogle »

darklajid wrote: post #116
freyfogle wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, you should tell EVERYONE you know. In seriousness though, while we do try our best (not just in Germany, but eight other countries as well), the situation he describes is one that the internet doesn't do a good job of solving. Basically demand way outstrips supply in cities like Munich. As a result, if you have a good flat or house you want to rent out, really all you need to do is tell 5-10 people and via wo…

Checked out Salz und Brot - Cologne's where I lived for quite some time and where I'd like to return to in the future. Family just didn't make it viable - the rent is just too high/we can't afford it and moved elsewhere. And just to confirm the craziness the first apartment I checked out in Cologne [1] (for fun, not seriously planning to move atm) requires you to pay 1300 EUR for the kitchen (sure, makes sense), a bi…

thanks, I've passed it on.
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