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Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

nytimes.com

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Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#111

Post by Cyther606 »

idlewords wrote: post #106
Cyther606 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The popular show "24" in its most recent season made the express decision to demonize hackers and glorify the use of drones in combat. I implore you to watch the first episode of the last season, where a masculine Jack Bauer is depicted breaking a pale, radical-looking emo hacker out of an underground torture facility in Britain. Minutes later, Bauer expresses disappointment with the hacker for aiding WikiLeaks. I'd…

It's a television show.

The Century of the Self

Bernays Propaganda

Surely professionals in other industries haven't studied this for decades, or have they?

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#112

Post by bengrunfeld »

justin66 wrote: post #110
bengrunfeld wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand your outrage at such a comment - it is a very western response. But have you lived in an Arab country, specifically a Muslim one? Or even an Arab neighborhood? Have you been a part of an Arab community for a prolonged period? I have. These ideals of pluralism and equality work wonderfully in novellas about utopian human co-existance, but they simply aren't reality. The Arabs think differently to Amer…

> The Arabs think differently to American liberal arts students - they have a different ethical code. The Arabs I've known ARE American students. It only takes a single example to disprove a universal statement about "The Arabs." (or The Blacks, or The Jews, etc.) They've usually been great people that I like a lot.

So you've met one or two American Arab students, studying in nice universities, and that dictates the social norms that spread across the middle east?? Wow man, I want some of what you're smoking.

Please, go and visit Yemen, visit Afghanistan, even visit Jordan for heaven's sake, and you'll find that the reality of the Middle East can't be understood from within a college cafe in upstate California.

There are powerful cultural rules at play in Arab society that the west has no conception of, and I think that if you get a good look at them up close, it will completely change your perspective.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#113

Post by bediger4000 »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #73
bediger4000 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait - how many suicide bombers have there been in the USA over the weekend? I've not read the papers or watched tee vee since last Friday. Geez, what pests those suicide bombers are!

They fundraise from America, have schools and training centers in America, collaborate on PR projects, planning, etc... I could really go on and on here....

Very frankly, I find the "schools and training centers" a bit much. I mean, the DHS has disseminated weird posters about how to spot a terrorist in hobby shops and stuff like that. Nobody is going to mind their own bidness if they get wind of a suicide bomber school and/or training center.

I'm going to need a couple cites from a reputable, mainstream media web site: you said "schools" not "school", and "centers" not "center". Not to belittle your viewpoint, I just haven't seen any such news reports.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#114

Post by prawn »

jostmey wrote: post #81
ronreiter wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is justification, it's a co-operation between Israel and the U.S. Just like the US helps Israel, Israel helps the US.

I'm sorry but exactly how does Israel help the US?

Provides influence/reach in another part of the world?

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#115

Post by joelhaus »

mpyne wrote: post #30
CamperBob2 wrote: post #3

Instead of being buried at the end of the article, Bamford's penultimate paragraph In Moscow, Mr. Snowden told me that the document reminded him of the F.B.I.’s overreach during the days of J. Edgar Hoover, when the bureau abused its powers to monitor and harass political activists. “It’s much like how the F.B.I. tried to use Martin Luther King’s infidelity to talk him into killing himself,” he said. “We said those k…

> We can't fix this by working within the system. That's what the Church Committee tried to do. They failed. There is no reason to think their twenty-first century counterparts will not fail again. So take it to the logical conclusion and disband the state completely. Or more to the point, be intellectually honest, and argue for the thing you actually want, instead of disguising it with smoke and mirrors about the su…

This is about emotion, not logical conclusions. Today, the number one threat to our freedom comes from the prospect of terrorist attacks on US soil. Even with this fact, we see endless complaints about the NSA. However, even the NSA's biggest critics can't answer simple questions about the supposed danger they pose:

  1. Cite a single example of an American citizen suffering
  any type of loss or damages resulting from the NSA's actions.

  2. Make the case for the US government unilaterally crippling
  or disarming it's signals intelligence capability.
I chalk it up to a bunch of tinfoil hat types and libertarians living in a fantasy world. When you look at the threats to freedom in the world today, the NSA falls at or near the very bottom of the list.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#116

Post by benologist »

geographomics wrote: post #80
jostmey wrote: post #37

I think this is the most damning leak to date. There is no justification for freely giving information to Israel. And the part about people's porn habits being tracked is even scarier. That could be used to discredit virtually anyone (well, any male at least). Who hasn't visited an embarrassing porn website at least once in their life ? Now imagine your name being publicly associated with that website.

Surely one could just deny any such assertions on their pornographic habits (or other embarrassing information)? Anything that would be claimed as proof could just as well be a collection of manufactured lies rather than leaked truth.

Accusations can last forever even if they're thoroughly debunked, and they can be dominant in large part thanks to SEO and the spread of info online rather than anything the victim can control.

This is why the EU wants the "right to be forgotten" on Google etc - to let the innocent be innocent.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#117

Post by selimthegrim »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #112
justin66 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Arabs think differently to American liberal arts students - they have a different ethical code. The Arabs I've known ARE American students. It only takes a single example to disprove a universal statement about "The Arabs." (or The Blacks, or The Jews, etc.) They've usually been great people that I like a lot.

So you've met one or two American Arab students, studying in nice universities, and that dictates the social norms that spread across the middle east?? Wow man, I want some of what you're smoking. Please, go and visit Yemen, visit Afghanistan, even visit Jordan for heaven's sake, and you'll find that the reality of the Middle East can't be understood from within a college cafe in upstate California. There are powerfu…

You know, dealing with people like they're out of a Leon Uris novel is a great way to make sure the status quo never changes.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#118

Post by selimthegrim »

ggg999 wrote: post #107
bengrunfeld wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The terrorism that Israel deals with predates significant US involvement in the Middle East. Bedouin attackers, not to mention marauding arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have been attacking Jews since before the 1920's. You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-viole…

You paint too simple a picture. And, if you go back to before the (successful and on-going) attempt to ethnically purge Palestine by European Jewish immigrants, you will see that Jews, and Christians were not persecuted when that land was under Muslim rule. In Israel, only 7% of the land was owned by Jews when the state of Israel was created. The rest was stolen. Homes were stolen at gunpoint. The Israelis repeatedly…

To be perfectly honest, the Jews bought much of the land fair and square from large holdings of absentee Arab landlords based in Beirut.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#119

Post by deciplex »

joelhaus wrote: post #115
mpyne wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can't fix this by working within the system. That's what the Church Committee tried to do. They failed. There is no reason to think their twenty-first century counterparts will not fail again. So take it to the logical conclusion and disband the state completely. Or more to the point, be intellectually honest, and argue for the thing you actually want, instead of disguising it with smoke and mirrors about the su…

This is about emotion, not logical conclusions. Today, the number one threat to our freedom comes from the prospect of terrorist attacks on US soil. Even with this fact, we see endless complaints about the NSA. However, even the NSA's biggest critics can't answer simple questions about the supposed danger they pose: 1. Cite a single example of an American citizen suffering any type of loss or damages resulting from t…

>Today, the number one threat to our freedom comes from the prospect of terrorist attacks on US soil.

This is only because of the actions the US government would certainly take in response, i.e. eliminate various freedoms that still remain.

(I wonder if it's appropriate to speak of 'freedom' anymore? Most of the stuff in the Bill of Rights seems more like revokable privileges at this point.)

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#120

Post by bmelton »

geographomics wrote: post #80
jostmey wrote: post #37

I think this is the most damning leak to date. There is no justification for freely giving information to Israel. And the part about people's porn habits being tracked is even scarier. That could be used to discredit virtually anyone (well, any male at least). Who hasn't visited an embarrassing porn website at least once in their life ? Now imagine your name being publicly associated with that website.

Surely one could just deny any such assertions on their pornographic habits (or other embarrassing information)? Anything that would be claimed as proof could just as well be a collection of manufactured lies rather than leaked truth.

Denying the existence of provable facts? I have a hard time imagining how that could be effective without a PR team and a compelling narrative to be spun.
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