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Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

nytimes.com

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Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#101

Post by justin66 »

bjourne wrote: post #92
ronreiter wrote: post #51

The US is a close ally of Israel for obvious reasons. Israel wants to better defend itself, so it co-operates with the N.S.A. This is what Israel needs to defend itself, and Israel probably does the same thing to help defend the US. There will always be a conflict between privacy and security, you can stick to one on expense of the other, but you will never be able to "fix" things.

Wait a minute. What are those "obvious reasons" you speak of?

We're allied with Israel so we can get valuable intelligence from Israel on all the people who want to blow us up because we're allied with Israel.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#102

Post by justin66 »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #91
dismal2 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western involvement cannot be ignored in analysis of the middle east ever since the end of WW1. Extremism is the product of continuos destabilization of democracies, funding of extremist groups and puppet regimes. Pick pretty much any country, specifically ones that the Western powers have been having their war of terror in recently and look at the history. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, etc, etc, etc. Al Qaeda was c…

The terrorism that Israel deals with predates significant US involvement in the Middle East. Bedouin attackers, not to mention marauding arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have been attacking Jews since before the 1920's. You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-viole…

> You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in.

You're slurring an entire ethnic group. I can see where that would be a useful component for justifying rights violations to yourself but hopefully you can see why we wouldn't want the US to take any part whatsoever.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#103

Post by Cyther606 »

anigbrowl wrote: post #48
DINKDINK wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is constantly maintaining political agreements a superior solution to building crypto solutions that can't be broken (economically)

Because this is ultimately a social problem. You're not going to make conflict or oppression obsolete with encryption; even if a tyrrannical government can't get any actionable information out of someone it perceives as an antagonist, it may feel free to abuse or torture people simply to keep the rest of the population in line - by terrorizing some people and catering by proxy to the sadistic instincts of others.Many…

The popular show "24" in its most recent season made the express decision to demonize hackers and glorify the use of drones in combat. I implore you to watch the first episode of the last season, where a masculine Jack Bauer is depicted breaking a pale, radical-looking emo hacker out of an underground torture facility in Britain.

Minutes later, Bauer expresses disappointment with the hacker for aiding WikiLeaks. I'd love to pretend they really are losing their creative edge, but the average person tacitly accepts the messaging without question. It's product placement, pure and simple. The psychological seed is being sown.

Who better for the NSA to depict in the "Tor Stinks" slides as the enemy than a 20 or 30-something Tor user: http://media.bestofmicro.com/L/8/403820/original/nsa-tor-doc...

This is why you need to start telling everyone you know to use Tor. If you're capable of getting people to use your shitty consumer applications then you can use your skills to get them to do the right thing.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#104

Post by CamperBob2 »

pstuart wrote: post #83
idlewords wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't expect reforms made in the seventies to constrain intelligence agencies indefinitely. The Church Committee imposed real, effective limits on domestic surveillance that it took the best part of three decades to weasel out of. Why not do it again, and do it more regularly? You seem to be arguing that because the Church Committee didn't fix the problem of government overreach once and for all, it accomplished…

I thought the FISA Court rubber stamped everything brought before it? Where are the checks and balances?

Well, it's not as if all the FISA judges are themselves appointed by a single judge, or anything. They're trying to meet us halfway. Let's be reasonable here.

/s

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#106

Post by idlewords »

Cyther606 wrote: post #103
anigbrowl wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because this is ultimately a social problem. You're not going to make conflict or oppression obsolete with encryption; even if a tyrrannical government can't get any actionable information out of someone it perceives as an antagonist, it may feel free to abuse or torture people simply to keep the rest of the population in line - by terrorizing some people and catering by proxy to the sadistic instincts of others.Many…

The popular show "24" in its most recent season made the express decision to demonize hackers and glorify the use of drones in combat. I implore you to watch the first episode of the last season, where a masculine Jack Bauer is depicted breaking a pale, radical-looking emo hacker out of an underground torture facility in Britain. Minutes later, Bauer expresses disappointment with the hacker for aiding WikiLeaks. I'd…

It's a television show.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#107

Post by ggg999 »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #91
dismal2 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western involvement cannot be ignored in analysis of the middle east ever since the end of WW1. Extremism is the product of continuos destabilization of democracies, funding of extremist groups and puppet regimes. Pick pretty much any country, specifically ones that the Western powers have been having their war of terror in recently and look at the history. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Afganistan, etc, etc, etc. Al Qaeda was c…

The terrorism that Israel deals with predates significant US involvement in the Middle East. Bedouin attackers, not to mention marauding arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have been attacking Jews since before the 1920's. You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-viole…

You paint too simple a picture. And, if you go back to before the (successful and on-going) attempt to ethnically purge Palestine by European Jewish immigrants, you will see that Jews, and Christians were not persecuted when that land was under Muslim rule.

In Israel, only 7% of the land was owned by Jews when the state of Israel was created. The rest was stolen. Homes were stolen at gunpoint. The Israelis repeatedly engage in massacres of the Palestinian and Lebanese civilians to this day. Resistance should be expected. And, with the level of violence perpetrated by Israelis, a violent resistance is understandable.

The death toll for civilians is pretty lopsided. In just the massacre of operation cast lead, the Israelis murdered nearly 1500 people, nearly 450 children. Israel suffered 3 civilian deaths in retribution. Again and again, the Israelis call for evacuation to U.N. schools, then bomb the schools. Once a mistake, twice maybe a mistake, but we are well beyond twice. IDF soldiers wear t-shirts with a picture of a pregnant woman in cross-hairs with (in Hebrew), "one bullet two kills" Israel recently even apologized (therefore admitted to) harvesting organs from Palestinian prisoners for transplant into Jews. The Israelis even use their massacre of civilians as a selling point for their weapons exports, "battle tested in Gaza." The Israelis are the terrorists by any objective measure.

There was a poll in Haaretz that showed overwhelming support by Israelis of the cast lead massacre. The percentage in support of the massacre was exactly the Jewish population of Israel. So, complete justification to paint in a very broad brush.

The Israelis have Jewish only roads. And there are around 30 laws that give special treatment to Jews over other citizens. And, if you want to be truly disgusted, visit some of the Palestinian villages neighboring Jewish settler towns-- you will see things like the Jewish settlers directing their raw sewage into the Palestinian village below (well what is left of the Palestinian village with the constant raids by Jewish terrorist settlers, and Israeli military). Jewish settlers walk around everywhere with powerful weapons intimidating the Palestinians who are not permitted to do the same.

Ugliest place I have ever been (Every Arab I met there was kind and generous, and even in refugee camps, I never heard a hateful word about the Israeli Jews, the other way, I only met two Israeli Jews [out of 10s] who did not make some sort of slur). Only place I have zero desire to ever return to.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#108

Post by bengrunfeld »

justin66 wrote: post #102
bengrunfeld wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The terrorism that Israel deals with predates significant US involvement in the Middle East. Bedouin attackers, not to mention marauding arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have been attacking Jews since before the 1920's. You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-viole…

> You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in. You're slurring an entire ethnic group. I can see where that would be a useful component for justifying rights violations to yourself but hopefully you can see why we wouldn't want the US to ta…

I can understand your outrage at such a comment - it is a very western response.

But have you lived in an Arab country, specifically a Muslim one? Or even an Arab neighborhood? Have you been a part of an Arab community for a prolonged period? I have.

These ideals of pluralism and equality work wonderfully in novellas about utopian human co-existance, but they simply aren't reality. The Arabs think differently to American liberal arts students - they have a different ethical code.

That is one of the main reasons that the US was completely unsuccessful in their political endeavors in the Middle East, and which everything from Lebanon to Iran looks like a well-cooked pot of shit-stew right now.

If westerners better understood the Arab mindset, as it applies in countries in the middle east, we would live in a more peaceful world.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#109

Post by BugBrother »

ggg999 wrote: post #107
bengrunfeld wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The terrorism that Israel deals with predates significant US involvement in the Middle East. Bedouin attackers, not to mention marauding arabs from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have been attacking Jews since before the 1920's. You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-viole…

You paint too simple a picture. And, if you go back to before the (successful and on-going) attempt to ethnically purge Palestine by European Jewish immigrants, you will see that Jews, and Christians were not persecuted when that land was under Muslim rule. In Israel, only 7% of the land was owned by Jews when the state of Israel was created. The rest was stolen. Homes were stolen at gunpoint. The Israelis repeatedly…

This was propaganda from a karma 9 account. I'll touch some points but I think that there are too many fanatics on this subject, it doesn't work on HN.

(I got a couple of comments first upvoted and then down voted a bunch of points, so I guess this will go the same way.)

>>In Israel, only 7% of the land was owned by Jews when the state of Israel was created.

More Jews were thrown out of the Muslim countries than Palestinians fled. (And not in a burning civil war, but from cold blooded racism.)

The possessions stolen from those Jews included land area multiple times the size of Israel.

Most of those Jews fled to Israel. So how about a reasonable view -- do a swap and call it even? The Palestinians get some of the resources stolen by their allied Muslim countries?

Why is that bad?

>>Jews, and Christians were not persecuted when that land was under Muslim rule.

This is in fact true now... Since most every Jew were thrown out of the Muslim world because of what some other Jews did, there are none to persecute..

Worth reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism#Mohammad...

It is easy to find more.

>> IDF soldiers wear t-shirts with a picture of a pregnant woman in cross-hairs [...]

You demonise a country for what some individuals do.

What do you then say about about officially sanctioned racist hatred, copied from the Nazis?! Like the Arab countries... In state controlled media.

The previous Egyptian president spoke about the importance of teaching your children to hate Jews... And so on.

So how many hundreds of times worse is that? You're not a dishonest hypocrite with different standards for different sides, are you?

>> [Latest Gaza war]

- Started by Hamas, which also gave murderers of three children a hero status. (Note that some Israelis did a revenge murder -- and will end up in jail.)

- Shooting from civilian areas -- at civilians. (There are empty areas in Gaza: http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4580/gaza-population-densi... )

- http://www.thewire.com/global/2014/09/hamas-quietly-admits-i...

- Ah... No. Waste of time and damaging HN. :-(

(Also worth mentioning is how the Muslim world kept the Palestinians in camps and refused to integrate them for generations. Just to keep the hatred going. Smart, since most every other land loss from WWII is forgotten. Just a pity they destroyed so many lives to do it. Arguably, much worse than anything the Israelis ever did to the Palestinians, even in your description...)

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#110

Post by justin66 »

bengrunfeld wrote: post #108
justin66 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can blame what you want on western influence, but the truth is - and you'll know this if you've lived with Arabs - that they don't subscribe to western ideals of pacifism and anti-violence. It's not what they believe in. You're slurring an entire ethnic group. I can see where that would be a useful component for justifying rights violations to yourself but hopefully you can see why we wouldn't want the US to ta…

I can understand your outrage at such a comment - it is a very western response. But have you lived in an Arab country, specifically a Muslim one? Or even an Arab neighborhood? Have you been a part of an Arab community for a prolonged period? I have. These ideals of pluralism and equality work wonderfully in novellas about utopian human co-existance, but they simply aren't reality. The Arabs think differently to Amer…

> The Arabs think differently to American liberal arts students - they have a different ethical code.

The Arabs I've known ARE American students. It only takes a single example to disprove a universal statement about "The Arabs." (or The Blacks, or The Jews, etc.) They've usually been great people that I like a lot.

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