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Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

nytimes.com

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Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#31

Post by eric_h »

damon_c wrote: post #24
dragonwriter wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Snowden did it, and look what happened. Nothing. "Nothing" understates the impact. Sure, no one insider's revelations alone will suffice to radically change the situation, but, to borrow a Medieval adaptation of a classical aphorism, gutta cavet lapidem, non vi, sed saepe cadendo .

For my fellow uneducated hackers: "a water drop hollows a stone not by force, but by falling often"

I know you're just being cheeky, but I don't believe that "knowing latin" == "educated", same for its corollary.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#32

Post by CamperBob2 »

mpyne wrote: post #30
CamperBob2 wrote: post #3

Instead of being buried at the end of the article, Bamford's penultimate paragraph In Moscow, Mr. Snowden told me that the document reminded him of the F.B.I.’s overreach during the days of J. Edgar Hoover, when the bureau abused its powers to monitor and harass political activists. “It’s much like how the F.B.I. tried to use Martin Luther King’s infidelity to talk him into killing himself,” he said. “We said those k…

> We can't fix this by working within the system. That's what the Church Committee tried to do. They failed. There is no reason to think their twenty-first century counterparts will not fail again. So take it to the logical conclusion and disband the state completely. Or more to the point, be intellectually honest, and argue for the thing you actually want, instead of disguising it with smoke and mirrors about the su…

Smoke and mirrors? That's rich. What is the definition of "impossibility of oversight," if not the knowledge that you can lie to Congress with impunity?

These agencies are running completely open-loop. They can't be reigned in by the rule of law, because the modern security state exempts them from it.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#33

Post by javajosh »

I think this all is going to take time to sink in, but in the end, Americans will do the right thing, which has been the overwhelming trend in the past. Think slavery. Think women's suffrage. Think civil rights. Think gay marriage.

This one is a little tough because the targets are unsympathetic and the anecdotes of specific harm are non-existent. It's difficult to argue against fighting dirty as a principle; it's much easier when you can point to a specific person (like MLK) and say, "That dude was clearly wronged."

I wish it was different. I wish people got more upset about government fighting dirty against anyone[1], even against the enemies that we ourselves agree are despicable and evil. Fighting dirty hurts us far more than it hurts them, because it damages our moral identity.

[1] The one exception is if there is an existential threat to the US. However, terrorism has never been, and will never be, an existential threat to the US[2] - except insofar as, in a fit of epic but unfunny irony, they manage to manipulate us into destroying our own moral fabric.

[2] The same argument applies to Israel. Israel playing dirty against state actors like Iran would be far more defensible, because Iran really could wipe Israel out.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#34

Post by DennisP »

idlewords wrote: post #21
CamperBob2 wrote: post #3

Instead of being buried at the end of the article, Bamford's penultimate paragraph In Moscow, Mr. Snowden told me that the document reminded him of the F.B.I.’s overreach during the days of J. Edgar Hoover, when the bureau abused its powers to monitor and harass political activists. “It’s much like how the F.B.I. tried to use Martin Luther King’s infidelity to talk him into killing himself,” he said. “We said those k…

The Church Committee succeeded pretty well; the reforms held for a number of years. These kinds of checks on state power require regular maintenance. What we need is a modern Church Committee, not to throw up our hands at the political system entirely.

We do need that. We also need to get as many people as possible using strong encryption. The less useful mass surveillance is to the government, the easier it will be to get the political reforms we want.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#35

Post by tmpdevice »

cryoshon wrote: post #5
CamperBob2 wrote: post #3

Instead of being buried at the end of the article, Bamford's penultimate paragraph In Moscow, Mr. Snowden told me that the document reminded him of the F.B.I.’s overreach during the days of J. Edgar Hoover, when the bureau abused its powers to monitor and harass political activists. “It’s much like how the F.B.I. tried to use Martin Luther King’s infidelity to talk him into killing himself,” he said. “We said those k…

Okay, if not fixing it by working within the system, then what is the next step?

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/ted5.htm

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#36

Post by DINKDINK »

idlewords wrote: post #29
CamperBob2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accompanying one of his later document releases, Snowden himself said: In the need to develop a capacity to know what potential enemies are doing, the United States government has perfected a technological capability that enables it to monitor virtually all message traffic. Now, that is necessary and important to the United States as we look abroad at enemies or potential enemies. We must know, at the same time, that…

You can't expect reforms made in the seventies to constrain intelligence agencies indefinitely. The Church Committee imposed real, effective limits on domestic surveillance that it took the best part of three decades to weasel out of. Why not do it again, and do it more regularly? You seem to be arguing that because the Church Committee didn't fix the problem of government overreach once and for all, it accomplished…

Why is constantly maintaining political agreements a superior solution to building crypto solutions that can't be broken (economically)

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#37

Post by jostmey »

I think this is the most damning leak to date. There is no justification for freely giving information to Israel. And the part about people's porn habits being tracked is even scarier. That could be used to discredit virtually anyone (well, any male at least). Who hasn't visited an embarrassing porn website at least once in their life ? Now imagine your name being publicly associated with that website.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#39

Post by snowwrestler »

DINKDINK wrote: post #36
idlewords wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't expect reforms made in the seventies to constrain intelligence agencies indefinitely. The Church Committee imposed real, effective limits on domestic surveillance that it took the best part of three decades to weasel out of. Why not do it again, and do it more regularly? You seem to be arguing that because the Church Committee didn't fix the problem of government overreach once and for all, it accomplished…

Why is constantly maintaining political agreements a superior solution to building crypto solutions that can't be broken (economically)

Because political power can make certain technologies illegal, or constrain their implementation. For example, encryption is not much use if the law mandates that the government gets a copy of every private key. This was really proposed in the 1990s and thankfully defeated through political pressure.

Re: Israel’s N.S.A. Scandal

#40

Post by declan »

dragonwriter wrote: post #18
alan_cx wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should any insider do that? Snowden did it, and look what happened. Nothing. Sad truth is, the majority don't care. If they did, then it would be reflected in voting, and things would change. But no. Mean while, Snowden is a wanted man in exile. Don't get me wrong, I don't like this one little bit, but it seems I'm in a minority.

> Snowden did it, and look what happened. Nothing. "Nothing" understates the impact. Sure, no one insider's revelations alone will suffice to radically change the situation, but, to borrow a Medieval adaptation of a classical aphorism, gutta cavet lapidem, non vi, sed saepe cadendo .

To inject a bit of realpolitik from this morning's news:

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/09/techs-surveillance-hop... "The Senate fled Washington last week without taking action on a bill to rein in the National Security Agency’s bulk data collection, a measure that topped the industry’s agenda after Edward Snowden’s leaks about the NSA’s expansive snooping programs..."

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