Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking • Hacker News Board

Re: Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking

#41

Post by barry-cotter » Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 1:59 PM UTC

pmr_ wrote: post #16

infruset wrote: post #4

I wonder if this might not be something else. When you study a language in a classroom, you frequently engage in conversations on various topics, whose sole purpose is to make you practice much more than to actually have a well-thought conversation. As such (and here I speak from my own experience only), it is much more common to defend positions in which you don't actually believe, for the sake of argument or maybe…

Neither of the two languages a bilingual person speaks is considered foreign. Otherwise the person would not be bilingual. What would be the result of such a study? Keep in mind that in linguistics the difference between being a native speaker and having learned a language after the critical period is considered huge.

tl:dr It's fluency that impacts utilitarianism, not nativeness.

Being able to communicate in two languages is not the same as being bilingual. The study in question suggests that thinking/communicating in a language that one is less than fluent in leads to more utilitarian decisions.

The important thing here is fluency, not nativeness. I am fluent in German but I started learning it at 12. German is not a native language for me but I am fluent in it. As such the study suggests I should be equally utilitarian in it and English, my mother tongue. But my French and Mandarin are both quite bad so I should be more utilitarian in them because I must be more deliberate.

Re: Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking

#42

Post by marcosdumay » Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 2:28 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #35

mattfenwick wrote: post #30

The paper ( http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjourna... ) is not an example of good science. First: did they even find some kind of correlation, or is it just a statistical aberration? Second: if they found a real correlation, is their explanation of why that correlation exists correct? IMHO, their evidence does not support their claims. Where are the controls? What are the sampling biases? What a…

The premise had more potential. One set of individuals, evaluating a scenario presented to them in their native tongue, were found to react in a statistically significantly different way from a second set of individuals, evaluating the same scenario in a language foreign to them. The problem is the people in group one are not the same as those in group two. Statistical controls can mitigate the risk of randomness cra…

> have the same people evaluate similar situations in a foreign and their native tongues

Also does not work. You'll prime the test subject, and bias them.

Re: Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking

#43

Post by lutusp » Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 2:52 PM UTC

A quote: "But it does help us predict and explain some moral choices."

Predict, yes. Explain, no. Many such studies can predict that something is going to happen, that a correlation exists, but far fewer even attempt to offer a testable explanation, a way to turn a correlation into a cause-effect relationship. Science commentators as far back as Aristotle have described science as a way to craft explanations for observations, not merely describe the observations and their outcomes, which is that this study does.

Re: Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking

#44

Post by innguest » Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 2:55 PM UTC

GFischer wrote: post #7

I really liked being introduced to the Trolley Problem (especially the second formulation), I hadn't heard of it before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem I spent more time than I should reading about several possible answers :) for example: http://philosophyfaculty.ucsd.edu/faculty/rarneson/Courses/t... some with a libertarian slant: http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2012/08/the-trolley-non... http://f…

> where is a good place to read about and/or discuss interesting philosophical questions

You should explore similar books to these:

- The Pig That Wants to be Eaten

- The Duck That Won the Lottery

Re: Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking

#45

Post by lutusp » Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 2:57 PM UTC

mattfenwick wrote: post #30

The paper ( http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjourna... ) is not an example of good science. First: did they even find some kind of correlation, or is it just a statistical aberration? Second: if they found a real correlation, is their explanation of why that correlation exists correct? IMHO, their evidence does not support their claims. Where are the controls? What are the sampling biases? What a…

The paper (...) is not an example of good science.

Very true, good point. It's quite common to see a study that makes some observations, even rigorously controlled ones (this isn't an example), then offers a conclusion that isn't supported by the observations. People untrained in science notice the quality of the observations and think that supports the conclusion.

In this case, a correlation is established, then, when evidence for a cause-effect relationship is needed, the authors instead begin waving their arms.

Re: Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking

#46

Post by Aqueous » Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 3:29 PM UTC

wvh wrote: post #2

Interesting. I speak 6 languages and actively think in 3–4 of those, and I notice slight changes in my attitudes and behaviour depending on the active language in my head. It might be interesting to experiment and find out if not just the fact that it's a foreign language matters, but also the influence of the actual choice of language.

Wow, that's amazing. Did you learn all of those languages when you were a young child or did you learn them as you were getting older? Also, are you from a country that is bordered by a lot of other countries with native languages but doesn't have a native language of its own, like Switzerland?

Re: Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking

#47

Post by GFischer » Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 4:19 PM UTC

innguest wrote: post #44

GFischer wrote: post #7

I really liked being introduced to the Trolley Problem (especially the second formulation), I hadn't heard of it before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem I spent more time than I should reading about several possible answers :) for example: http://philosophyfaculty.ucsd.edu/faculty/rarneson/Courses/t... some with a libertarian slant: http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2012/08/the-trolley-non... http://f…

> where is a good place to read about and/or discuss interesting philosophical questions You should explore similar books to these: - The Pig That Wants to be Eaten - The Duck That Won the Lottery

Thank you :) . Will do.

Edit: I've also had a recommendation of watching Michael Sandel's videos:

http://www.justiceharvard.org/

Re: Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking

#48

Post by yongjik » Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 5:14 PM UTC

thret wrote: post #10

When I first heard this problem, it was told in a heart-wrenching first-person 'this actually happened' way. Roughly as follows: "A man who worked the gears for a train line took his son to work. His son ran off to play and when it came time for him to divert a train (not doing so would cause a head on collision) he couldn't see his son, but he heard him cry out - he was stuck in the gears. Diverting the train would…

I also heard the story (actually, a slightly different version involving a bus driver with faulty brake) in "God Sacrificed His Son" setting, and man, that's totally fked up. I'm just glad I didn't hear it as a child. I might have actually believed that BS.

I mean, a man goes to work which involves speeding trains, and he lets his son play in the railroad? Out of sight? Assuming he's such an idiot, where's his manager and why does the manager even allow that thing? Does the manager even know it? How many safety regulations should be violated for this to happen?

And a speeding train is on a collision course with another unless one single guy moves the gear in time (with a few seconds of safety margin)? Think about it. What happens if the guy has to go to pee, or (more realistically) he had a heart attack?

It's doubly fucked up when used as a Christian parable, because, you know, isn't the whole point of God that he's omniscient. (And he designed and built the whole railroad system with zero safety margin... God knows why.)

Re: Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking

#49

Post by mercer » Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 8:18 AM UTC

pmr_ wrote: post #16

infruset wrote: post #4

I wonder if this might not be something else. When you study a language in a classroom, you frequently engage in conversations on various topics, whose sole purpose is to make you practice much more than to actually have a well-thought conversation. As such (and here I speak from my own experience only), it is much more common to defend positions in which you don't actually believe, for the sake of argument or maybe…

Neither of the two languages a bilingual person speaks is considered foreign. Otherwise the person would not be bilingual. What would be the result of such a study? Keep in mind that in linguistics the difference between being a native speaker and having learned a language after the critical period is considered huge.

The critical period is until around the age of seven, right? The reason I'm asking is that I started speaking/reading a lot of English from the age of 8 on, and as far as I can tell I'm bilingual. Could you explain why that would not be the case, or how that's possible?

Re: Moral Judgments Depend on What Language We’re Speaking

#50

Post by thret » Mon, Sep 29, 2014, 3:27 AM UTC

philh wrote: post #36

rayiner wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent, not only would I not hit the switch, I'd blame Congress for the passenger deaths for not funding modernization of the switching infrastructure.

If blame is a meaningful thing to assign, I'm going to assign at least some of it to you for not watching your son, and quite a lot of it to you for not flipping the switch. I much prefer a world where you are sad and your son is dead, to a world where hundreds of people are dead, all their families are sad, and your son is alive. (That said, it's at least somewhat plausible that if I was in that situation, I would a…

I'm confident most people would do the 'wrong' thing. A train-load of strangers is abstract, and it is difficult to comprehend. I think it is like in Schindler's List. 6 million Jews - who can grasp that? It is a number that makes no sense, a horror you cannot attach a face to. But we all are immediately choked up over the little girl in red.