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“The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

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Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#41

Post by XorNot »

3rd3 wrote: post #37
habitue wrote: post #22

So, while in general I've enjoyed other things Joe Armstrong has written, I think this talk is pretty discombobulated and doesn't have a coherent narrative. Here are some of the problems Joe posed: - bugs in software like Open Office, Keynote, grunt - code not being commented - computers booting slowly - computers using too much energy - code being written for efficiency rather than readability He talks about distrib…

There are a couple of things that seem incoherent, but maybe I'm missing something: - Is the only reason why he touches upon the limits of computation and computing efficiency that it secures distributed hash tables and that there is space for improvement in terms of energy consumption, respectively? - It seems contradicting that he advocates biologically inspired systems and lowering entropy at the same time. Aren't…

DNA is a posterboy for spagetti code.

You have a function, it codes for a gene. Only then you have it's anti-sense translation, which can also code for a gene. And then you have post-translational processing, which takes that gene-product and makes into any number of other things. And then you have DNA binding proteins which effect readability, so that gene can code for a different gene when the normal start/stop codons are made accessible or inaccessible further up the DNA strand. And then the whole program also grinds to a halt if you remove any of the "junk" because the junk is used to control execution (translation) speed and inhibit the program from self-destructing (cancer).

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#43

Post by signa11 »

zaroth wrote: post #3

"In the middle of the pattern matching algorithm, there was this single comment that read # and now for the tricky bit." (~10:40) At ~28:00 is he saying that the optimal computing device could operate 27 orders of magnitude more efficiently that what we use today? At ~36:00, finally something to make me sit up. "content addressable store".

> At ~36:00, finally something to make me sit up. "content addressable store".

"content addressable store" or cam (content-addressable-memory) is pretty well-known in cpu-arch, n/w equipment etc. domains. hashtables are s/w counterparts :)

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#44

Post by Zigurd »

XorNot wrote: post #41
3rd3 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a couple of things that seem incoherent, but maybe I'm missing something: - Is the only reason why he touches upon the limits of computation and computing efficiency that it secures distributed hash tables and that there is space for improvement in terms of energy consumption, respectively? - It seems contradicting that he advocates biologically inspired systems and lowering entropy at the same time. Aren't…

DNA is a posterboy for spagetti code. You have a function, it codes for a gene. Only then you have it's anti-sense translation, which can also code for a gene. And then you have post-translational processing, which takes that gene-product and makes into any number of other things. And then you have DNA binding proteins which effect readability, so that gene can code for a different gene when the normal start/stop cod…

Who designed that? Unbelievable.

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#45

Post by Turing_Machine »

p1mrx wrote: post #14

During the last minute of the talk, he says: "Computers are becoming a big environmental threat. They're using more energy than air traffic." Is this actually true? Sure, the average person spends a lot more time on a computer than in a plane, but still it seems crazy that they'd be comparable. Or at least the comparison isn't very relevant, because the Internet can significantly reduce people's need to travel.

I don't know whether it's true or not, but the computer you're typing on is far from the only one likely you have running. Think of all the microprocessors in TVs, microwave ovens, thermostats, cars (I think most cars have about 30-50 MPUs nowadays)...

Let's ballpark it (fill in better numbers if you have them). Assume that a person takes an average of one 5,000 km trip by plane per year. ATW, a Boeing 737-900ER uses 2.59 liters of fuel per 100 km per seat, so that would be about 130 liters of fuel. Also ATW, Jet A-1 fuel has an energy density of 34.7 MJ/l, so about 4,500 MJ for the trip. A watt is one joule per second, and there are about 31 million seconds in a year, so the continuous power output equivalent for the plane flight would be about 145 watts. So, if all your computers put together are consuming more than ~150 watts, they're consuming more than the equivalent of a 5,000 km plane flight over the course of a year.

This is a very rough estimate, but it doesn't appear unreasonable on its face that his statement could be true.

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#46

Post by thallukrish »

It is a very interesting talk. Though it might take a while for some one to connect the dots Joe has sprayed all over.

Somewhat related to this, I have been annoyed by the way apps scatter information and have been working to find a way of managing the mess.

http://productionjava.blogspot.in/2014/07/the-broken-web.htm...

and

http://productionjava.blogspot.in/2014/08/coding-can-be-puni...

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#47

Post by jacquesm »

RickHull wrote: post #28
jacquesm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bigger issue is the existence of 'disclaimers'. Software production is the only branch of industry that I'm aware of that is capable of getting out from under manufacturing defect claims in that we state categorically (as an industry) that we have no responsibility, liability or even obligation to fix in case we ship a defective product. That really needs to change.

Disclaiming liability and such is an important F/OSS norm. Of course, proprietary software will improve on this (only) if forced to by competition. The omnipresence of EULAs is a much bigger problem, though. I think the F/OSS norms are better all around.

> Disclaiming liability and such is an important F/OSS norm.

Indeed. So there can be a market for companies that take on liability when serving commercial customers using F/OSS code that they have audited and that they feel exposes no more risks than they can bear. The original authors should definitely not be liable if they label their code as alpha or beta quality and do not wish to be exposed at all. They are doing a service to society. But once you aim your code at being used in production by entities that can suffer vast losses if your code turns out to be defective (in other words, if you sell your stuff to a business or private person) then you should be liable for those damages, or at a minimum you should insure against those damages.

Compare software to for instance the engineering profession to see how strange this software anomaly is.

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#48

Post by tormeh »

jacquesm wrote: post #27
pjmlp wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of those would be fixed if there was a real concern for quality with corresponding responsibility when things go wrong.

I think the bigger issue is the existence of 'disclaimers'. Software production is the only branch of industry that I'm aware of that is capable of getting out from under manufacturing defect claims in that we state categorically (as an industry) that we have no responsibility, liability or even obligation to fix in case we ship a defective product. That really needs to change.

This is why companies that really need good code have internal developers.

Re: “The Mess We're In” by Joe Armstrong at Strange Loop [video]

#50

Post by contingencies »

mattholtom wrote: post #31
habitue wrote: post #22

So, while in general I've enjoyed other things Joe Armstrong has written, I think this talk is pretty discombobulated and doesn't have a coherent narrative. Here are some of the problems Joe posed: - bugs in software like Open Office, Keynote, grunt - code not being commented - computers booting slowly - computers using too much energy - code being written for efficiency rather than readability He talks about distrib…

Came here to see this. I expected to see a well reasoned argument for functional programming and how entrenched the OO mentality is. What's the mess we're in again?

What's the mess we're in again?

Capitalism. Nobody gets paid to think about the big problems.

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