Rich, Black, Flunking
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Rich, Black, Flunking
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Re: Rich, Black, Flunking
#2The article has enriched me by a new concept: voluntary vs involuntary minorities. Thanks, upvoted.
A disturbing thought: if black racist sentiment says "Plato and hypotenuses are for whites", and white racist sentiment says "crime is for blacks", the performance disparity between the two racist asshole groups isn't all that surprising!
I'd also be very interested in similar in-depth causal studies on the gap between white and Jewish academic achievement, because this makes me, and more importantly my kids in the future, part of the underachieving group.
Re: Rich, Black, Flunking
#3This is a problem for sure. There is so much in this story I could comment on but I will just say that children definitely get an idea of what they are "supposed" to be from several different sources- parents, television, teachers, peers, etc. When you are young there is a sort of penalty for being different or unusual and children often end up gravitating toward some role at least some of the time. I think certain ethnic groups "over-achieve" and others "under-achieve" because of this pressure- they are just being who they are "supposed" to be. This is my verbose way of blaming the whole thing on peer and societal pressures.
People (adults and children alike) are not really equipped to resist societal pressure. We have a lot of things we are supposed to do- graduate high school/college, get married (maybe even to someone of our own race), have children, get a good job, shower everyday, wear "cool clothes", get good/bad grades, act black, act white and we often suffer societal consequences if we don't "behave"... I think the HN community, being more counter-culturalist/entrepreneurial than average can definitely see where I am coming from on this.
Re: Rich, Black, Flunking
#4This is a problem for sure. There is so much in this story I could comment on but I will just say that children definitely get an idea of what they are "supposed" to be from several different sources- parents, television, teachers, peers, etc. When you are young there is a sort of penalty for being different or unusual and children often end up gravitating toward some role at least some of the time. I think certain e…
This "idea of what they are supposed to be" is at the heart of psychological transaction/script analysis, which takes it to the extreme that people get this "script" describing how they should lead their life from their parents and will do almost anything to follow it, no matter how self-destructive, i.e. someone who gets told by their father "you'll end up in prison" will not only become a criminal, but will also let himself get caught so he can fulfill the script.
Re: Rich, Black, Flunking
#5The article has enriched me by a new concept: voluntary vs involuntary minorities. Thanks, upvoted. A disturbing thought: if black racist sentiment says "Plato and hypotenuses are for whites", and white racist sentiment says "crime is for blacks", the performance disparity between the two racist asshole groups isn't all that surprising! I'd also be very interested in similar in-depth causal studies on the gap between…
This is the inherent problem I see in the modern "casual" approach to racism. It's "ok" now to be vaguely anti-white/anti-black in an "im not really racist, honest" way. With just the one attitude in the room your probably ok (just get a bit of awkwardness) but with both the divide is doubled and problems appear.
I get frustrated with some of the big "anti-racism" campaigners; they strike me as making the smaller issues big ones and causing divisions all over again.
On the specific issue I think it's not so much because the students are black they have this attitude - just because they are in a minority and have the anti-majority sentiment. I saw a similar problem at my school when girls where let into the all male establishment for the first time. Even though girls tend to do better academically at that age in our school they did worse and had higher rates of no homework completion/detention (as I recall). Im guessing for very similar reasons.
To be honest though I think parents are the main problem; and not just in minority groups now. Even my Aunt who is in her early 40's has no interest in her kids schooling - and they suffer for it. The current parental generation seems full of similar attitudes - my mother is a teacher and she says getting parents to take an interest, encourage learning out of school and other activities is the biggest challenge she faces at the moment.
Re: Rich, Black, Flunking
#6The article has enriched me by a new concept: voluntary vs involuntary minorities. Thanks, upvoted. A disturbing thought: if black racist sentiment says "Plato and hypotenuses are for whites", and white racist sentiment says "crime is for blacks", the performance disparity between the two racist asshole groups isn't all that surprising! I'd also be very interested in similar in-depth causal studies on the gap between…
This is the inherent problem I see in the modern "casual" approach to racism. It's "ok" now to be vaguely anti-white/anti-black in an "im not really racist, honest" way. With just the one attitude in the room your probably ok (just get a bit of awkwardness) but with both the divide is doubled and problems appear. I get frustrated with some of the big "anti-racism" campaigners; they strike me as making the smaller iss…
Maybe parents are right in not being that interested in schooling. I think I wouldn't be. School is mostly about rote learning, fitting in and being a good worker drone.
Sure, it worked in the past, but perhaps in the future other skills will matter more.
Re: Rich, Black, Flunking
#7Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the inherent problem I see in the modern "casual" approach to racism. It's "ok" now to be vaguely anti-white/anti-black in an "im not really racist, honest" way. With just the one attitude in the room your probably ok (just get a bit of awkwardness) but with both the divide is doubled and problems appear. I get frustrated with some of the big "anti-racism" campaigners; they strike me as making the smaller iss…
Maybe parents are right in not being that interested in schooling. I think I wouldn't be. School is mostly about rote learning, fitting in and being a good worker drone. Sure, it worked in the past, but perhaps in the future other skills will matter more.
Maybe parents are right in not being that interested in schooling. I think I wouldn't be.
You'd be doing your kids a great disservice.
School is mostly about rote learning, fitting in and being a good worker drone.
Only if that's what you want it to be about. My parents took a great interest in my schooling and I feel that those years where both educational and formative. First and foremost they where willing to acknowledge that not all schools are equal and that not all schools work for all people. So they made sure I went to good schools that worked for me. They also continuously monitored my progress and where in dialogue with my teachers and where willing to go to bat for me. They made sure I got extra tutoring in subjects I had problems in, and helped me advance in subjects I was doing well in.
So while it is only one data point, I believe that the parents interest in their child's schooling is critical for the child getting anything out of school. You cannot show a complete disinterest in your child's education and then complain when he doesn't get education you think he needs or deserves.
Re: Rich, Black, Flunking
#8Somewhat of an old link, as John Ogbu died the same year (2003) the submitted article was published.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ogbu
A somewhat more recent source
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/noexcuses/
brings the story a little more up to date, by mentioning places where the achievement gap is not so broad.
Re: Rich, Black, Flunking
#9Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the inherent problem I see in the modern "casual" approach to racism. It's "ok" now to be vaguely anti-white/anti-black in an "im not really racist, honest" way. With just the one attitude in the room your probably ok (just get a bit of awkwardness) but with both the divide is doubled and problems appear. I get frustrated with some of the big "anti-racism" campaigners; they strike me as making the smaller iss…
Maybe parents are right in not being that interested in schooling. I think I wouldn't be. School is mostly about rote learning, fitting in and being a good worker drone. Sure, it worked in the past, but perhaps in the future other skills will matter more.
As an addition to dagw's response the other crucial thought that occurs ot me is that, yes, I agree with you schooling probably needs a big refresh. BUT if a parents response to that is "well schooling sucks so there is no point bothering" then their kids will probably inherit that attitude (this is my Aunt's problem - her kids struggle a LOT). If the yhave that view they should be providing alternative options in their own "teaching time" rather than take it out on the child - right?
What I was mostly talking about was this annoyingly prevelant attitude of some modern parents where they believe schools are where their kids learn and non of that responsibility lies with them.
If you know any teachers ask them about this: I bet what they have to say will be a shock.
Re: Rich, Black, Flunking
#10The article has enriched me by a new concept: voluntary vs involuntary minorities. Thanks, upvoted. A disturbing thought: if black racist sentiment says "Plato and hypotenuses are for whites", and white racist sentiment says "crime is for blacks", the performance disparity between the two racist asshole groups isn't all that surprising! I'd also be very interested in similar in-depth causal studies on the gap between…
>I'd also be very interested in similar in-depth causal studies on the gap between white and Jewish academic achievement
I'm not sure what you mean here. There are European White Jews (They are the Jews with elevated IQ, Ashkenazi), African Jews, Oriental Jews, and so on. You can't say that Jews are not white or Jews are not black. You'd be surprised by the number of blond hair, blue eyed Jews in Israel. There are Jews with a Jewish characteristic, but just as many without. There are also non-Jews with Jewish characteristics. In my Jewish circle, they all claim to be white, and that's what you'd call them, you'd never know any difference unless you found out that they go to synagogue.