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Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

danwang.co

101–110 of 155 posts

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#101
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cold war having gone by the tipping point was also a very large factor. This tied into the moonrace, and the spin off innovations from that. As a side note, It has always annoyed me that there's a loud contingent of people that object to human space travel on the basis it's not the most efficient way to conduct science, because that is not the point of it. It is a signal of intent, throwing the baton far into the…

> It has always annoyed me that there's a loud contingent of people that object to human space travel on the basis it's not the most efficient way to conduct science... Sometimes I actually blame Skepticism. I'm not talking about skepticism mind you, but Skepticism-- the capital-S variety that became so popular in science starting in the 1970s as a reaction against things like the new age and the resurgence of religi…

>See any gods in there? See anything that cares about us? Nope. All I see is a tiny grain of sand in an endless black void of nothingness. We are basically dust mites living on that grain of sand. This photo basically proves that we know very little about where we are, where we come from, and where we are going. People looked at that picture and said it was beautiful and inspiring, but secretly somewhere deep inside I wonder if the reaction wasn't metaphysical horror...

>Stare at it for a while... you'll see it.

I'm just not seeing it. Instead, this one favorite song starts playing in my mind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p5OyLFQLCc). I see a species many of whom ignorantly believe that the world is only a few thousand years old, and yet who have not the slightest idea how young they truly are, and how far they have to grow up. I see sad, pessimistic depressives who grew up in darkness for so long that only the tiniest minority have any idea what light actually is or looks like.

And yet they struggle for every day and every tiniest gain! And each step of struggle, each plateau where a man falls tired, becomes the starting point where his successor begins and climbs yet higher! Every man climbs and climbs and will keep climbing until climbing through the heavens themselves!

These creatures contemplate their history and see it as either a line or a circle, but only the tiniest few have yet grasped that the path their race walks on is a spiral: turning endlessly around to recapitulate what came before, but always greater than ever before! They fight and build endlessly even though they have no coherent idea why or wherefore!

Think of where the human race comes from and consider everything they've accomplished, and think of all they will soon do. Think of the utterly insignificant timescale of it all, from the astrophysical and geological perspectives, and thus think of the unbelievable speed with which these people think and move!

Dust mites? Fear the empty black? Never! These are the finest, bravest, and wisest beings yet produced in this universe, who are forced to turn to their boundless imagination to find works exceeding their own!

(Yes, I know what the above sounds like. I still endorse it. On a good day.)

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#102
The title of this thread asks a question, and here is my guess at an answer:

Progress 1900-1941. Mostly based on practical 'tinkering' with a little science and engineering at just the college level. With a few exceptions, didn't need research contributions. Some Exceptions: Antibiotics, anesthetics, chemistry and chemical engineering. Also Bell Labs had started working on transistors based in part part on understanding of quantum mechanics. WWII interrupted the work, but soon after the war Bell Labs had the transistor.

Progress 1941-1960. Heavily driven by big spending, lots of drive, for US national security, especially WWII and the Cold War. E.g., US DoD spending helped create Silicon Valley.

Progress 1960-1974. Throttled by US efforts in Viet Nam, the oil shock, and inflation from Viet Nam spending.

Progress 1974-present. Moore's law, the Internet, some pharmaceuticals, some in materials.

Otherwise progress was throttled. And here I will have to attempt to describe a cause, my idea, apparently not mentioned so far.

There's plenty of good pure and applied research on the shelves of the research libraries. There are plenty of well trained people in the results of the pure and applied research and how to do more such research, in science, engineering, technology, etc.

But for this material on the shelves of the libraries and these trained workers to contribute to the US economy and standard of living as Thiel discusses, we need a lot of other people to go along, approve, fund, act as CEOs, Members of Boards of Directors, etc. Then, these other people upchuck at what the well trained people know, feel threatened, inadequate, intimidated. They fear that going along with the corresponding projects would be imprudent for them as managers and/or financially irresponsible.

Or, through 1940, work was mostly in a management hierarchy where the supervisor knew more and the subordinates were there to add muscle and/or person-hours to the work of the supervisor. Now that situation has changed: Mostly the people who really understand the technical material and how to apply it are just the worker bees, and the rest of the organizational hierarchy is trembling because they do not understand, in the old model, enough about the technical material really to manage the work.

There are some big exceptions: The US DoD is able to get leading edge research into systems into the field. E.g., GPS, the SR-71, indeed, the H bomb. And so can the pharmaceutical industry. And what has been done in the lithography for microelectronics is astounding.

But, my view of information technology in Silicon Valley, it can't: That is, send them a project plan with a technical paper, and Sand Hill Road will just toss it into the trash; really. NSF, NIH, DARPA, ONR, etc. are fully able to review and evaluate technical material for projects, but nearly no one on Sand Hill Road can. Indeed, nearly no venture partners have the qualifications to serve as problem sponsors for DoD, DoE, NSF, NIH, etc., tenure track faculty in STEM fields in research universities, direct research, get research grants, review research papers, publish in good journals, serve on the editorial boards of good journals, etc.

Elsewhere in the US economy, middle managers do not want to bet their careers on technical projects they do not understand from their highly technical subordinates.

Basically the need is to get people with good technical backgrounds in positions where they have the authority to request, evaluate (or have evaluated), approve, fund, and oversee projects that exploit the pure/applied STEM work on the library shelves.

So, for the high level technical material we need to exploit, we need middle management well enough educated with such material to be able effectively to manage the exploitation. At least the middle managers must be able to direct competent evaluations of high end technical material.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#103

We're close to getting cars that can drive themselves. We have cars that can detect when the brakes are locking and fix it, so that you never go into a skid. We have railroad locomotives that can tell when an axle is just starting to slip, and cut the power to that one axle, so that the wheels never slip even at full power on slick rails. We have jet aircraft engines that can report when a part is getting close to fa…

And yet over 3B ( billion ) people are below the poverty line... EDIT: Luckily, weapons systems are much more effective than they were in the 1970s, so I guess we will be able to fend off the poor. EDIT2: Look, downvote all you want...the elephant in the room is that the rewards and advances in technology are not and can not be distributed evenly. Even in a first-world nation such as the US, so many of the products l…

The poverty rate has halved over 20 years: http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/06/ec...

This is a reason to be optimistic. w00t for humanity! Also b000 to your fearful and unfounded outlook on humanity.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is, if I had to pick just one of those two, I'd definitely go for online payments.

So did everybody else. That's why we got online payments. I wonder if much of the angst about how the future hasn't turned out the way we wanted is really "We got everything we wanted and it turns out what we wanted is this ?" Markets are really good at fulfilling peoples' desires, but the problem is they fulfill people's actual wants, not what they wish they wanted. So it's like turning a spotlight on our desires an…

No, we got the online payments because they scale.

Flying cars have been possible since the 50's or so but they're simply not practical and the concept does not scale well (and not counting Mollers scam, it's a scam and not practical).

http://www.terrafugia.com/aircraft/transition

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/videos/category/innovation/the...

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#105
post #3

"I sort-of date the end of rapid technological progress to the late-60s or early-70s. At that point something more or less broke in this country and in the western world more generally which has put us into a zone where there’s much slower technological progress." I've believed for years that we entered something like a minor dark age (dim age?) on or about 1970, and that computers have become synonymous with "techno…

See my post at

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8338417

in this thread.

I believe we are largely in agreement, and I suggest what happened near 1970 and propose an answer to the question since 1970 and to what Thiel is complaining about.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#106
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet over 3B ( billion ) people are below the poverty line... EDIT: Luckily, weapons systems are much more effective than they were in the 1970s, so I guess we will be able to fend off the poor. EDIT2: Look, downvote all you want...the elephant in the room is that the rewards and advances in technology are not and can not be distributed evenly. Even in a first-world nation such as the US, so many of the products l…

People are quick to downvote when it's inconvenient to their vision of the world. What he says is true, and innovation seems to affect fewer and fewer people - the rest can only dream of it. Good drugs are being banned, electric cars are being laughed at by people who can't fathom that an electric motor can put out the same performance as a V6, smartphones can be used as full digital assistants yet they're used for p…

  Those who are lucky enough to be touched by innovation 
  surround themselves in a bubble and dismiss everyone else.
Totally correct!

Despite of (political correct) statistics made by the world bank, the inequality is rising in the world. Only look at the US. Once the US had a broad middle class. Today, the middle class is shrinking more and more and is replaced by quarters for the poor and others for the rich. The only reason, that it is not seen by most people is, that they stick in their own peer-group -- and do not look to much into the lives of others. Also, there is no country in the world that has that many people in prisons ...

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#107
post #3

"I sort-of date the end of rapid technological progress to the late-60s or early-70s. At that point something more or less broke in this country and in the western world more generally which has put us into a zone where there’s much slower technological progress." I've believed for years that we entered something like a minor dark age (dim age?) on or about 1970, and that computers have become synonymous with "techno…

Mentioned it as a comment; reposting here because it fits into what you mention: I am wondering how much of an impact modern money policies have had on this "perceived" (???) deceleration, i.e. through a growing government bureaucracy that is siphoning off productivity by deluding the overall purchasing power of the population, gold as money standard and all of that...? Secondly, what about demographics – is an aging population with a smaller amount of young people more risk averse and prone to regulating everything to death?

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#108
post #3

"I sort-of date the end of rapid technological progress to the late-60s or early-70s. At that point something more or less broke in this country and in the western world more generally which has put us into a zone where there’s much slower technological progress." I've believed for years that we entered something like a minor dark age (dim age?) on or about 1970, and that computers have become synonymous with "techno…

> but I have yet to see an explanation that truly seems to work The 70's was when energy started getting expensive again. And we did nothing to deal with the problem, not even now. The 50's and the 60's (and the 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's...) were marked by huge growth in govenments worldwide. Something that we simply never experienced before. It's quite possible that we reached an inflection point by the 70's, and it be…

> Another possibility is that we reached a level of development where going forwad is really that hard.

Well, harder. See my post at

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8338417

in this thread where I try to explain the sense in which harder is, with the traditional management hierarchy, too hard.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#109
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, I know it might be hard to fathom, but funnily enough, every single one of the technologies you mention --without exception-- harken back in (arguably) significant and non-trivial ways to technology or fully functional prototypes already in place by the 1970s, if not earlier. I'm not making this up. Look them up and see for yourself! (Yes, even autonomous cars [1]. And ABS [2]. And X-ray computed tomography [3])…

Isn't that just how technology works? We've technically had the Internet since the 1960s, but it has grown and developed and changed enough that the Internet we had in the 1960s wasn't really what we'd call "the Internet" today (the world wide web). It takes a long time for anything to go from the first time someone hacked together a semi-functioning prototype to widespread adoption, especially when it's the 0 to 1 t…

I imagine this depends on one's perception of "shift", but as someone who's been using the commercial Internet since the late 80's, in my view the world wide web only went through one fundamental shift - that was from static web pages to dynamic ones (CGI, at the time).

Programming tools, languages and paradigms (client side v. server side, MVC v. layered, and so on) have evolved for sure, but the WWW? Nothing fundamentally new since the early 90's when CGI made its appearance. The web works today as it did then, albeit with fatter pipes and obese page payloads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Gateway_Interface

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#110
post #85

We're close to getting cars that can drive themselves. We have cars that can detect when the brakes are locking and fix it, so that you never go into a skid. We have railroad locomotives that can tell when an axle is just starting to slip, and cut the power to that one axle, so that the wheels never slip even at full power on slick rails. We have jet aircraft engines that can report when a part is getting close to fa…

Ok, I know it might be hard to fathom, but funnily enough, every single one of the technologies you mention --without exception-- harken back in (arguably) significant and non-trivial ways to technology or fully functional prototypes already in place by the 1970s, if not earlier. I'm not making this up. Look them up and see for yourself! (Yes, even autonomous cars [1]. And ABS [2]. And X-ray computed tomography [3])…

You may like "Creating the 20th Century" by Vaclav Smil. In it, it argues that almost all big advances of the 20th century are actually based off of inventions and innovations that occurred in the 1860-1900 time period. It makes me wonder what all of our advances from 1960-2000 will create for 2040-2060?
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