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Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

danwang.co

81–90 of 155 posts

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#82

We're close to getting cars that can drive themselves. We have cars that can detect when the brakes are locking and fix it, so that you never go into a skid. We have railroad locomotives that can tell when an axle is just starting to slip, and cut the power to that one axle, so that the wheels never slip even at full power on slick rails. We have jet aircraft engines that can report when a part is getting close to fa…

Progress in physical things hasn't slowed since the 1970s, we just don't have the same low hanging fruit, especially in the realm of going from nothing to something.

The automobile has changed as much in the last 20 years as in the previous 100. Ubiquitous embedded computing has transformed essentially everything, especially manufacturing. Hell, there's even a new flurry of innovation in spaceflight, with a very high chance that we'll see Martian colonies in the next few decades. That alone is nothing to sneeze at.

But let me take a moment to drill down on one specific thing: pollution. In the mid-20th century pollution and abuse of the environment in the developed world was becoming a very serious, even existential problem. Ocean dumping was ubiquitous. Millions of deaths per year were occurring due to the sad state of air quality in major cities like LA, Pittsburgh, London, etc. There were disastrous individual events like the great smog of London in 1952. Many people aren't aware that that event killed more people than 9/11, that's how serious it was. It also made over 100k people seriously ill, aside from the impact it had on quality of life for people living in London in general. Since then there has been a massive uptick in the population of Los Angeles, there has been a massive increase in car ownership and total vehicle-miles driven, a massive increase in freight volumes on railroads and trucks. And yet, despite all that there has been an even more massive improvement in air quality, enabled by technological innovation.

There are many, many more amazing stories along the same lines, with the cornerstone in every case being technology developed in the late 20th century as an enabling factor.

One of the downsides of technology that works so well and so smoothly (which late 20th/early 21st century automobiles would fall in the category of) is that it can be difficult to garner the attention it deserves. Smooth functioning is the absence of problems, so it becomes too easy to simply set the baseline at the point where the technology is working (taking it for granted). But these amazing technologies (automobiles, the internet, etc.) are the product of herculean amounts of effort from an enormous number of incredibly skilled people. It should be amazing that we have handheld computers with wireless internet connectivity at broadband speeds, yet this is just the normal state of being in the developed world these days.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#83
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cold war having gone by the tipping point was also a very large factor. This tied into the moonrace, and the spin off innovations from that. As a side note, It has always annoyed me that there's a loud contingent of people that object to human space travel on the basis it's not the most efficient way to conduct science, because that is not the point of it. It is a signal of intent, throwing the baton far into the…

> It has always annoyed me that there's a loud contingent of people that object to human space travel on the basis it's not the most efficient way to conduct science... Sometimes I actually blame Skepticism. I'm not talking about skepticism mind you, but Skepticism-- the capital-S variety that became so popular in science starting in the 1970s as a reaction against things like the new age and the resurgence of religi…

>See any gods in there?

I see billions.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#84
post #55

We're close to getting cars that can drive themselves. We have cars that can detect when the brakes are locking and fix it, so that you never go into a skid. We have railroad locomotives that can tell when an axle is just starting to slip, and cut the power to that one axle, so that the wheels never slip even at full power on slick rails. We have jet aircraft engines that can report when a part is getting close to fa…

Not to mention, whatever we are doing as a society seems to have dramatically reduced the rates of crime (especially violent crime).

Banning lead paint and fuel?

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#85

We're close to getting cars that can drive themselves. We have cars that can detect when the brakes are locking and fix it, so that you never go into a skid. We have railroad locomotives that can tell when an axle is just starting to slip, and cut the power to that one axle, so that the wheels never slip even at full power on slick rails. We have jet aircraft engines that can report when a part is getting close to fa…

Ok, I know it might be hard to fathom, but funnily enough, every single one of the technologies you mention --without exception-- harken back in (arguably) significant and non-trivial ways to technology or fully functional prototypes already in place by the 1970s, if not earlier. I'm not making this up. Look them up and see for yourself! (Yes, even autonomous cars [1]. And ABS [2]. And X-ray computed tomography [3])

On the other hand, try make that same comparison between the 1930s with the 1970s and you would fall off your chair... Or between the 1890s and the 1930s... That's what progress used to look like, sadly [4].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_car

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_computed_tomography

[4] http://www.cepr.org/sites/default/files/policy_insights/Poli...

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#86
post #39

The takeaway from Thiel's fairly accurate assessment of broad technological progress is the following: You get what you incentivize. Winner-take-all free market capitalism is not synonymous with advanced, century-long research and development projects at the national scale. Our current socioeconomic system rewards convincing others to depart with their money in the quickest way possible. Ponzi-schemes, marketing, fin…

As someone who was working at a fusion startup when Musk was doing PayPal, your post hit a bit close to home for this particular idiot. Had I known back then that I would have been better off doing an internet startup and then later do a fusion startup with the petty cash fund, I would obviously have chosen that route. But like most founders, I thought I could actually succeed, or why else try?

The real issue with incentivizing long-term investment is one of distributing risk and reward over both participants and time. The great advantage of the web startup space is the quick time to expand the market - even if working fusion were here today, it would not have the growth curve typical of successful web companies. Add this to the long and risky development time for things like fusion (or AI, or space launchers, etc.), and what you say seems obvious.

So, why did I choose to follow the risky route rather than the more assured Big R&D route? Well, competition is the main answer. Big R&D projects often start with the idea that developing something is expensive, and since you can't afford to build more than one, this idea morphs into the One True Design (e.g. ITER/Tokomak in fusion). Then big R&D turns its back on other, possibly cheaper development paths. Taking the VC route may put the risk on to the participants, but at least it is open to new, cheap ideas which may be able to bypass the big R&D route.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#87

We're close to getting cars that can drive themselves. We have cars that can detect when the brakes are locking and fix it, so that you never go into a skid. We have railroad locomotives that can tell when an axle is just starting to slip, and cut the power to that one axle, so that the wheels never slip even at full power on slick rails. We have jet aircraft engines that can report when a part is getting close to fa…

The technologies you mention are optimization technologies, not innovation technologies.

There's a difference between inventing the internal combustion engine, and making that engine consume 10% less fuel. Even if the latter ends up being a more challenging feat, at the end of the day it is making an improvement to something that already exists. It's a "1+n" technology, as opposed to a "0 to 1" technology.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#88
post #33

Things do advance, but they're a lot less spectacular, sometimes because we're running into hard physical limitations. Supersonic flight, for instance: it's just super difficult to make it economically feasible. But subsonic aircraft are much better than they were back in the 1970s. Cars are leaps and bounds above what they were in the 80s: more reliable, safer, faster. Scientists are also running against physical li…

I think you didn't read the article carefully. We don't need more people doing the same stuff. We need people willing to waste all their cash to BUILD something from new discoveries.

Earlier new technologies used to be priced sky-high. Now cost benefit analysis is the only thing that matters.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#89

We're close to getting cars that can drive themselves. We have cars that can detect when the brakes are locking and fix it, so that you never go into a skid. We have railroad locomotives that can tell when an axle is just starting to slip, and cut the power to that one axle, so that the wheels never slip even at full power on slick rails. We have jet aircraft engines that can report when a part is getting close to fa…

We won't be getting cars that drive themselves because the future is walking and bicycles. There is not the energy. The future does not involve hundreds of millions of people bringing a ton of steel everywhere with them, self driving or electric or otherwise. There simply won't be the joules. Personally I'm excited for it.

The oil, natgas, and coal are rapidly running out. The shale/fracking thing is an accounting fraud on the verge of blowing up, if you happen to think that's a real answer. None of the outfits involved actually turn a real profit on energy production. Renewables are largely a scam based on government subsidy. Existing nuclear technologies are also a scam based on government liability indemnities. Also, the fissile material situation is pretty dicey going forward.

The techno fantasy future is going to fade away in the coming decades and we're going to confront real resource and energy limits that change our way of life to something more resembling that of our ancestors.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#90

We're close to getting cars that can drive themselves. We have cars that can detect when the brakes are locking and fix it, so that you never go into a skid. We have railroad locomotives that can tell when an axle is just starting to slip, and cut the power to that one axle, so that the wheels never slip even at full power on slick rails. We have jet aircraft engines that can report when a part is getting close to fa…

it has gone into improving efficiency, convenience, and reliability. This is the important bit, and it matters a lot more than some of the anecdata the original post mentioned. Commercial airliners haven't got faster than Concorde, they've got slower. They've also got smaller wingspans and less buoyancy than Howard Hughes' Spruce Goose. As impressive as the engineering accomplishments were, they optimized for the wro…

Actually there might soon be a plane mich faster than the concorde. We have mobile phones. We will soon have efficient green energy. We may have the first "star in a bottle" which I am REALLY ARRAID OF and so forth.

And anyway what's wong with incremental improvements across the board? Just look at medicine, and life expectancy!

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