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Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

danwang.co

31–40 of 155 posts

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#31
post #26

Yeah, we went to the moon and then what happened? Genetic engineering has been around since the 70's but society has largely rejected its applications. And consider the Energy sector - when was the last nuclear power plant constructed in the United States?

The vast majority of animal feed in the US is GMO.

(For starters, roundup ready field corn and soy).

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#32
post #5

I think we're at the top of an S curve. And it's reflected in the stock market: http://www.multpl.com/s-p-500-price/ After 6 years of 0% interest rate, we've clawed our way back to the dot-com bubble, and no higher. Our foot is completely down on the gas pedal, and we're hardly getting anywhere. What will the next S curve be? Space? AI? I'm not sure, but as things stand, I can't help but chuckle remorsefully when I t…

Interesting idea to use the framework of S curves on this observation. But I think that the typical S curve model will not work on big innovations that are not disruptive towards or at least strongly related to each other in terms of use cases. What you mean is rather the concept of "Kondratiev Waves" [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondratiev_wave

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#33
Things do advance, but they're a lot less spectacular, sometimes because we're running into hard physical limitations. Supersonic flight, for instance: it's just super difficult to make it economically feasible. But subsonic aircraft are much better than they were back in the 1970s. Cars are leaps and bounds above what they were in the 80s: more reliable, safer, faster.

Scientists are also running against physical limitations: to do Big science, you need expensive equipment, like the LHC, but also electron beam microscopes, sophisticated automatic lab equipment, etc. so you need a lot of people to make this stuff works.

The problems we do get are more social than scientific: most new buildings aren't much better than the ones from the 70s, but that's because people aren't applying the science that exists. Transportation and energy are similar: it's not sufficient that the technology can be used, the social and economic structure has to be there to support it.

For instance, you could dream about a citywide automated contained transportation system in Montreal. You'd have a big east-west conveyor, with links to the mainland at each end of the island, plus a big north-south corridor to get across the island and cross the St. Lawrence. Then you'd only need small electric trucks to move the containers to and from stations along the conveyors.

But that's never going to happen because you couldn't put the structure in place.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#34
post #11
post #3

"I sort-of date the end of rapid technological progress to the late-60s or early-70s. At that point something more or less broke in this country and in the western world more generally which has put us into a zone where there’s much slower technological progress." I've believed for years that we entered something like a minor dark age (dim age?) on or about 1970, and that computers have become synonymous with "techno…

1970 is about the end of the Apollo programme, and I presume the end of the massive government spending on science and engineering that went with it. You're right, a libertarian view of this is way off the mark.

Correlation is not causation. You are cherry picking one metric and using it to flout your point of view.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#35
post #26

Yeah, we went to the moon and then what happened? Genetic engineering has been around since the 70's but society has largely rejected its applications. And consider the Energy sector - when was the last nuclear power plant constructed in the United States?

GMOs are a more complex subject, but as for nuclear power I tend to think that the lack of progress has caused its failure to be adopted rather than the other way around.

Look at the nuke plants we're building. They are still overgrown 1950s submarine reactors that only make use if about 3% of the useful energy in fissile fuel. The rest is "waste," and reprocessing that waste is expensive and cumbersome. They're also still vulnerable to a whole host of nasty failure modes. The probability of those failure modes has been reduced through incremental improvement, but there has been no revolutionary progress.

An analogy: It's as if we invented the piston steam engine and that's it. No turbines, no internal combustion engines, no combined cycle plants, and certainly no fuel cells or thermovolaics or photovolaics or anything like that. That's the situation with nuclear power. We're still building big versions of the Chicago Pile.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#36
post #24
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything you cite is in or closely related to the IT sector, which is the exception. Every other sector has gone cold or even backwards since ~1970.

Do you consider self-driving cars to be in or closely related to the IT sector?

I consider "self driving cars" as not existing the corporeal world.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#37
post #3

"I sort-of date the end of rapid technological progress to the late-60s or early-70s. At that point something more or less broke in this country and in the western world more generally which has put us into a zone where there’s much slower technological progress." I've believed for years that we entered something like a minor dark age (dim age?) on or about 1970, and that computers have become synonymous with "techno…

From the person Thiel's debating soon: http://www.thebaffler.com/salvos/of-flying-cars-and-the-decl... You can find a video of a talk online too.

[deleted]

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#38
post #26

Yeah, we went to the moon and then what happened? Genetic engineering has been around since the 70's but society has largely rejected its applications. And consider the Energy sector - when was the last nuclear power plant constructed in the United States?

The vast majority of animal feed in the US is GMO. (For starters, roundup ready field corn and soy).

That is true but Genetic Engineering has largely been limited to cross-breeding plants.

You truly lack imagination if think that roundup resistant crops represent the pinnacle of Genetic Engineering.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#39
The takeaway from Thiel's fairly accurate assessment of broad technological progress is the following:

You get what you incentivize.

Winner-take-all free market capitalism is not synonymous with advanced, century-long research and development projects at the national scale. Our current socioeconomic system rewards convincing others to depart with their money in the quickest way possible. Ponzi-schemes, marketing, financial trickery, etc. are the preferred methods.

Why do we see so many get rich quick startups (to the dismay of Sam Altman and YC) instead of fusion startups?

Because that's the most rational way to succeed in today's economy. You'd have to be an idiot to waste your time trying to build a working fusion reactor in your basement when you could just code up a photo sharing app and get acquired for billions. That's why we all idolize Elon Musk; he's only ever tackled difficult industries. How much easier would it have been for him to have made a Facebook, Instagram, etc. clone and become an investor just like the rest of his cohort of successful entrepreneurs?

Look gang, we have to stop lying to ourselves. YC and VCs are great for startups that require a few laptops and a bunch of determined programmers. They really are not suited to decade long research projects which have produced such things as: Multi-stage rockets, genetic sequencing, computers, the Internet, fission reactors, etc.

I love the startup culture, hacker culture and the sheer spirit of creativity and determination it espouses. But serious science and technology research is very expensive, very long term, and financially extremely risky. That's why in the last century, it has almost exclusively been financed by governments under threat of war (WWI, WWII, Cold War).

Thiel prescribes deregulation and Libertarian governments as a solution to the failure of Big R&D. I think he is wrong, precisely because of the last hundred years. Big R&D is expensive and risky, and requires a very long commitment timeline for results. Corporations cannot and will not bear the financial risk of long term research. Neither will individuals or investors.

Thus, I propose the only solution that has any precedence: Big R&D as a government mandate. Much like education, healthcare, and social benefits, Big R&D must become a central pillar of a modern society. I envision a Cold War era science race between nations, research labs, and individuals, but in the spirit of science, not war.

Research would be a continuous national challenge, much like the Apollo project under Kennedy, but encompassing all of the sciences and continuing past a single administration. There would be work at every level for citizens in the nation's research industry to slowly offset the losses incurred by automation. When all basic needs are met by a very efficient, very high tech and mostly automated free market system, research would become our generator of economic activity. It would provide a consistent safety net for citizens exiting the free market, and prepare them for an eventual return if the opportunity arises (e.g. a new technological breakthrough is ready for the market).

Think of research labs like Bell Labs or Xerox PARC, but government funded, intertwined with a cutting edge educational platform (e.g. edX), and in every municipality.

In conclusion, I think the free market has done all it can for research. Capitalism is great at providing needs and wants very efficiently in the short term and making incremental technological progress, but is terrible for making big leaps by solving very hard problems that have substantial capital requirements.

For that, we have to look back to our previous successes in Big R&D.

Re: Why Is Peter Thiel Pessimistic About Technological Innovation?

#40
post #3

"I sort-of date the end of rapid technological progress to the late-60s or early-70s. At that point something more or less broke in this country and in the western world more generally which has put us into a zone where there’s much slower technological progress." I've believed for years that we entered something like a minor dark age (dim age?) on or about 1970, and that computers have become synonymous with "techno…

> but I have yet to see an explanation that truly seems to work

The 70's was when energy started getting expensive again. And we did nothing to deal with the problem, not even now.

The 50's and the 60's (and the 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's...) were marked by huge growth in govenments worldwide. Something that we simply never experienced before. It's quite possible that we reached an inflection point by the 70's, and it become almost impossible to inovate.

This guy[1] has some interesting theories about the way administration evolved at the XX century. A world dominated by corporations is a new thing, and it may be true that the natural evolution of a society dominated by them leads to a period of stagnation like we have now.

All of the above explanations have data backing them (but less backing for the third), and people on the net eager to push that data to anybody that asks. Any of them alone could explain a worldwide stagnation of a few decades (or longer for the first). All of them seem to be happening, but causation on a system as complex as humanity is hard to stablish. Maybe we need to technological revolution on system analisys...

[1] http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/

EDIT: Another possibility is that we reached a level of development where going forwad is really that hard. And we have a lot of work we need to make on tooling before we see fast widespread development again.

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