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ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

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Re: ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

#11

Post by mattdw »

macmac wrote: post #8
mattdw wrote: post #7

I really like Clojure (and have enjoyed David Nolen's CLJS tutorials and guides), but I find ClojureScript to have terribly arcane tooling. Despite being familiar with Clojure, it's still 10 minutes of cargo-culting and copy-pasting before I can start actually working on a ClojureScript project. Slightly ironic for a language which places such an emphasis on removing "incidental complexity."

If Emacs is your thing, which it should be if you do Clojure, DPPs starter project Spiffy, will give you very decent setup in a couple of minutes. https://github.com/dragonmark/spiffy

Pretty familiar with Emacs, nrepl etc. Just a question of having enough time to familiarize myself with the ins and outs for any given new variety.

I actually did the ClojureScript tuts via LightTable, which was slightly less complex than the alternatives, but still required a bit of fussing.

(Incidentally, modifying my emacs setup in order to work on a project is the very definition of "incidental complexity".)

Re: ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

#12

Post by weavie »

nickik wrote: post #9
klibertp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"macros that are so powerful" You just made every single Common Lisp programmer who reads your comment cringe. Clojure is a very nice language and while it has no real innovations it does bundle a few unusual (for mainstream) concepts into a single easy to use package. However, you should wait with calling Clojure macros "powerful" until after you get access to readtable. Or wait, you won't ever, that's a feature, su…

Just because its not the most powerful macro systen ever created does not mean that its not powerful, so the sentence is completly ok.

It is definitely more powerful than Javascripts...

Re: ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

#13

Post by skrebbel »

macmac wrote: post #8
mattdw wrote: post #7

I really like Clojure (and have enjoyed David Nolen's CLJS tutorials and guides), but I find ClojureScript to have terribly arcane tooling. Despite being familiar with Clojure, it's still 10 minutes of cargo-culting and copy-pasting before I can start actually working on a ClojureScript project. Slightly ironic for a language which places such an emphasis on removing "incidental complexity."

If Emacs is your thing, which it should be if you do Clojure, DPPs starter project Spiffy, will give you very decent setup in a couple of minutes. https://github.com/dragonmark/spiffy

> If Emacs is your thing, which it should be if you do Clojure,

This is the kind of attitude that keeps people away from your language. The amount of people who shun away from C# simply because they don't like the idea of Windows / Visual Studio should be a hint.

Re: ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

#14

Post by ChaoticGood »

elwell wrote: post #4

David Nolen is passionate, bright, and brilliant. I watch some of his talks every now and then when I want to get hyped up to get some coding done.

David Nolen inspires me with his grasp of programming concepts & paradigms. Watching his talks and the other clojure geniuses truly inspire me. You are so right about the passionate, bright, and brilliant part. I feel his enthusiasm to iterate the world into a better place to code in.

Re: ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

#15

Post by mattdw »

skrebbel wrote: post #13
macmac wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Emacs is your thing, which it should be if you do Clojure, DPPs starter project Spiffy, will give you very decent setup in a couple of minutes. https://github.com/dragonmark/spiffy

> If Emacs is your thing, which it should be if you do Clojure, This is the kind of attitude that keeps people away from your language. The amount of people who shun away from C# simply because they don't like the idea of Windows / Visual Studio should be a hint.

To be fair, I'm on-side with the idea of an environment that adds niceties for your language. However, I agree that you should be able to still have a decent experience without installing or setting up language-specific editors or environments. I've really enjoyed being able to get into Rust with nothing more than Vim and a terminal.

Re: ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

#16

Post by lispm »

divs1210 wrote: post #10
klibertp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"macros that are so powerful" You just made every single Common Lisp programmer who reads your comment cringe. Clojure is a very nice language and while it has no real innovations it does bundle a few unusual (for mainstream) concepts into a single easy to use package. However, you should wait with calling Clojure macros "powerful" until after you get access to readtable. Or wait, you won't ever, that's a feature, su…

Clojure has something better than CL reader-macros [1]. These are name-space specific, and more composable than CL's reader macros. And reader-macros can be achieved with a small hack [2]. [1] http://www.infoq.com/interviews/hickey-clojure-reader [2] http://briancarper.net/blog/449/clojure-reader-macros

That's a just small part of Lisp's reader macros.

Re: ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

#17

Post by ANTSANTS »

skrebbel wrote: post #13
macmac wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Emacs is your thing, which it should be if you do Clojure, DPPs starter project Spiffy, will give you very decent setup in a couple of minutes. https://github.com/dragonmark/spiffy

> If Emacs is your thing, which it should be if you do Clojure, This is the kind of attitude that keeps people away from your language. The amount of people who shun away from C# simply because they don't like the idea of Windows / Visual Studio should be a hint.

That's more of a Lisp problem than a Clojure problem. All the Expert Lisp Programmers settled on Emacs many moons ago (as in decades past) and no one has bothered to write another (good) Lisp-friendly text editor since. And well, you can't really write Lisp without a suitable text editor, so all the Lisp neophytes either give up or learn to cope with emacs and eventually forget about replacing it.

Re: ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

#18

Post by klibertp »

weavie wrote: post #12
nickik wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because its not the most powerful macro systen ever created does not mean that its not powerful, so the sentence is completly ok.

It is definitely more powerful than Javascripts...

You mean it's better than Sweet.js? http://sweetjs.org/

Re: ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

#19

Post by estefan »

ANTSANTS wrote: post #17
skrebbel wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Emacs is your thing, which it should be if you do Clojure, This is the kind of attitude that keeps people away from your language. The amount of people who shun away from C# simply because they don't like the idea of Windows / Visual Studio should be a hint.

That's more of a Lisp problem than a Clojure problem. All the Expert Lisp Programmers settled on Emacs many moons ago (as in decades past) and no one has bothered to write another (good) Lisp-friendly text editor since. And well, you can't really write Lisp without a suitable text editor, so all the Lisp neophytes either give up or learn to cope with emacs and eventually forget about replacing it.

All the clojure tutorials I've seen recently have been using LightTable. Which is just as well since Emacs is not my thing.

Re: ClojureScript, Lisp's Revenge [video]

#20

Post by swannodette »

mattdw wrote: post #7

I really like Clojure (and have enjoyed David Nolen's CLJS tutorials and guides), but I find ClojureScript to have terribly arcane tooling. Despite being familiar with Clojure, it's still 10 minutes of cargo-culting and copy-pasting before I can start actually working on a ClojureScript project. Slightly ironic for a language which places such an emphasis on removing "incidental complexity."

Internalizing exactly what all the ClojureScript build options do definitely takes some time and it's frustrating if all you want to do is quickly try some little thing out. But it's for this reason I created the Leiningen templates mies, mies-om, and mies-node. These can get you up and running in a few seconds. For similar reasons other people have created templates for Ring app + ClojureScript, etc.
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