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Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

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Re: Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

#41

"Our business is not based on having information about you. You’re not our product. Our product are these, and this watch, and Macs and so forth. And so we run a very different company. I think everyone has to ask, how do companies make their money? Follow the money. And if they’re making money mainly by collecting gobs of personal data, I think you have a right to be worried. And you should really understand what’s…

Applications and software? Songs? Television? Movies? Health?

Seems to be a bit disingenuous to suggest that they aren't making any money from your habits and data.

Re: Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

#42
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't make a statement that Apple or the NSA can't read your messages. He said that Apple can't read your messages. However since you are so concerned about half truths, if you're going to criticise someone's statements, it would be nice if you'd address what they actually are saying. It's entirely possible that the NSA has hacked Apple, or that an Apple employee has been subverted by the NSA and inserted a back…

The half-truth is here: If the government laid a subpoena to get iMessages, we can’t provide it. It’s encrypted and we don’t have a key. It's encrypted and they don't have the key, but since the user does not have any control over the public keys being added, they could add a trusted public key and get it anyway. So they can actually provide messages if they really wanted to. I don't believe they really want to. But…

They can't create trusted public keys after the fact, they'd have to already have them. So there's no half truth. Either they currently create and store such public keys or they don't. Tim Cooke is saying they don't. That statement can't be half true. It's either true or false.

Re: Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

#43
It's nice to see that he thinks user privacy is something valuable, and that this is an issue worth talking about. However, I think he's really only addressing one of the three ways that user data can be compromised when it's held by a company:

1. Selling or using it internally (e.g. Google's ad targeting)

2. Stolen by criminals (e.g. Apple's recent snafu)

3. Requisitioned by the government (e.g. Yahoo's daily fines for refusing to join PRISM)

Data that isn't collected in the first place can't be lost, but that isn't always possible (and it often defeats the entire purpose of the service).

I think he's mostly talking about the first one, that Apple hasn't built their business around harvesting user data to feed advertising or other systems. I think that's laudable. I would rather a company focus their energies on one product, rather than selling a byproduct of their real money maker. I also don't really like being the fuel for a free service -- I'd rather pay for what I use and have everything above board.

Security is where I think Apple has its biggest problem with user privacy. Relative to companies like Google, they just aren't very good at running Internet services. Despite operating several huge services (iTunes, a CDN that handles iOS updates, iCloud, etc.), they aren't an Internet company at heart. Google and others are leaps and bounds above them in this regard.

They can improve this with hiring and changing the culture in those groups, and I think they started this process a year or two ago. It will take some time, and they're never going to be the world's best at this stuff.

Tim Cook touches on the third point a little, and some people think he is being disingenuous in his description of how iMessage works. I think that it doesn't really matter. It's great that Apple has designed a system that places an emphasis on keeping user conversations private, but there is literally nothing that they can do about government interference if they want to continue operating as a legal entity.

I hope that they do everything in their power to curb government overreach. Ultimately the government will get what they want. Simply building a system designed to keep you from accessing the data that flows through it is not sufficient: you will be forced to subvert that system or face serious consequences.

I strongly believe that the only way people will ever have privacy from the government again is to decentralize the Internet and the services that run on it. I doubt that a political solution is possible now that pandora's box has been opened, and it seems like it will only become more widespread as companies have to answer to more governments around the world and the technology to broadly intercept traffic becomes more commonplace.

Re: Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

#44
This statement is not enough... there could still be a third party (e.g. law enforcement) with a key or for more plausible deniability, a portion of a key (n bits out of N), and the statement would still be true. If they can do so truthfully, they should also state that nobody else other than the user has a key or any portion of a key, and that there are no keys or portions of keys in escrow where anybody else can conceivably get at them.

Re: Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

#45
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The half-truth is here: If the government laid a subpoena to get iMessages, we can’t provide it. It’s encrypted and we don’t have a key. It's encrypted and they don't have the key, but since the user does not have any control over the public keys being added, they could add a trusted public key and get it anyway. So they can actually provide messages if they really wanted to. I don't believe they really want to. But…

They can't create trusted public keys after the fact, they'd have to already have them. So there's no half truth. Either they currently create and store such public keys or they don't. Tim Cooke is saying they don't. That statement can't be half true. It's either true or false.

True. But they can replace any program on any iPhone with an NSA/Justice system version, and give the replacement access to any keys stored on the iPhone.

There can never be any security on a closed system where a central party has all the control. That means apple's system is a lost cause for user security.

Re: Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

#46
post #34
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't make a statement that Apple or the NSA can't read your messages. He said that Apple can't read your messages. However since you are so concerned about half truths, if you're going to criticise someone's statements, it would be nice if you'd address what they actually are saying. It's entirely possible that the NSA has hacked Apple, or that an Apple employee has been subverted by the NSA and inserted a back…

>He said that Apple can't read your messages. which is also a half-truth. They can't read messages encrypted with another phones public key, but they can certainly read messages encrypted with their public key which they might or might not send to your phone in addition to the actual recipient's public key. Neither me nor he is saying that Apple does in-fact read your messages (they probably don't), but saying that t…

What's about iCloud backups?

Re: Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

#47
post #12

There is zero control over what public keys get handed over to your phone to encrypt an iMessage with. For all we know, whenever you want to send a message to $USER, your phone gets a public key for $USERs iPhone, her iPad and the NSA master key. Tim Cook can state that they can't decrypt the message all he wants, but as long as there's no control over what public keys we encrypt the message with, the statement that…

> Assume every message you send over iMessage to be public.

You should assume any message that you send over the internet to be public unless you're a crypto expert.

And if you want to go one step further then you should probably consider anything you type into a computer to be public.

Re: Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

#48
post #27
post #12

There is zero control over what public keys get handed over to your phone to encrypt an iMessage with. For all we know, whenever you want to send a message to $USER, your phone gets a public key for $USERs iPhone, her iPad and the NSA master key. Tim Cook can state that they can't decrypt the message all he wants, but as long as there's no control over what public keys we encrypt the message with, the statement that…

He didn't make a statement that Apple or the NSA can't read your messages. He said that Apple can't read your messages. However since you are so concerned about half truths, if you're going to criticise someone's statements, it would be nice if you'd address what they actually are saying. It's entirely possible that the NSA has hacked Apple, or that an Apple employee has been subverted by the NSA and inserted a back…

- "It's either true or it's a lie"

Or is it both at the same time?!

Re: Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

#49
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The half-truth is here: If the government laid a subpoena to get iMessages, we can’t provide it. It’s encrypted and we don’t have a key. It's encrypted and they don't have the key, but since the user does not have any control over the public keys being added, they could add a trusted public key and get it anyway. So they can actually provide messages if they really wanted to. I don't believe they really want to. But…

They can't create trusted public keys after the fact, they'd have to already have them. So there's no half truth. Either they currently create and store such public keys or they don't. Tim Cooke is saying they don't. That statement can't be half true. It's either true or false.

[deleted]

Re: Tim Cook on iMessage Security: It’s Encrypted, and We Don’t Have a Key

#50
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't make a statement that Apple or the NSA can't read your messages. He said that Apple can't read your messages. However since you are so concerned about half truths, if you're going to criticise someone's statements, it would be nice if you'd address what they actually are saying. It's entirely possible that the NSA has hacked Apple, or that an Apple employee has been subverted by the NSA and inserted a back…

"Let's not worry about it, it's probably all ok, you can't say anything unless you have 100% cast-iron proof"? That's an excellent recipe for sleepwalking into this mess.

[deleted]
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