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LIVE NOW: Glenn Greenwald, Assange, and Kim Dot Com in NZ

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Re: LIVE NOW: Glenn Greenwald, Assange, and Kim Dot Com in NZ

#141

Post by cma »

jacquesm wrote: post #110
nmjenkins wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Voting is a responsibility, hard won through history and still not a privilege available in all countries. As pointed out by the parent post you absolutely do not have to agree with any of the options. 50% of the population spoiling their ballot paper would be a massive statement and precipitate political upheaval. 50% of the population not bothering to show up just says they don't care.

50% of the population not showing up shows there is a huge problem. There are only 22 countries left in the world where voting is compulsory and only a few of those are countries that have good reasons for that rule. As soon as your country appears in lists that also contain 'North Korea', 'Congo', 'Lebanon' and 'Thailand' when it comes to political matters you really have to wonder if you're on the right path. The o…

A sample has to be random to be valid, turnout isn't just like any statistical sample as it isn't random. Statisticians use turnout models to predict what polls (which do try to be random samples though have bias from other areas) say about election outcomes.

Re: LIVE NOW: Glenn Greenwald, Assange, and Kim Dot Com in NZ

#143

Post by DrJosiah »

jacquesm wrote: post #110
nmjenkins wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Voting is a responsibility, hard won through history and still not a privilege available in all countries. As pointed out by the parent post you absolutely do not have to agree with any of the options. 50% of the population spoiling their ballot paper would be a massive statement and precipitate political upheaval. 50% of the population not bothering to show up just says they don't care.

50% of the population not showing up shows there is a huge problem. There are only 22 countries left in the world where voting is compulsory and only a few of those are countries that have good reasons for that rule. As soon as your country appears in lists that also contain 'North Korea', 'Congo', 'Lebanon' and 'Thailand' when it comes to political matters you really have to wonder if you're on the right path. The o…

Having lived in a non-compulsory voting country for my entire life (US), the 50% turnout rate (more or less) is deplorable.

In my mind, there are two points about compulsory voting that are nice: 1) The government must make voting available (various Republican-lead areas in the US are trying to reduce voting hours to limit voting for poor and minority voters) 2) Employers must make it possible for employees to take the time to vote (no consistent protections currently)

I'd take compulsory voting in the US just to say "fuck you" to the various groups that have been disenfranchising female, poor, and/or minority voters for generations.

Re: LIVE NOW: Glenn Greenwald, Assange, and Kim Dot Com in NZ

#144

Post by DrJosiah »

jacquesm wrote: post #127
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you have examples of places where employers can interfere so easily with the right to vote? In the US. It has not been too many years since minorities were harassed if/when seen going to the polls. On the other end of that stick there is the fact that minorities were paid/coerced into voting a certain way. It is definitely not the case that an employer can prevent employees from voting specifically, but they can…

Then sue the bastards.

You need to pay a lawyer to sue, and you need to pay a lot for a lawyer that will win. The US legal system is "pay for play", despite claims and general belief to the contrary.

Re: LIVE NOW: Glenn Greenwald, Assange, and Kim Dot Com in NZ

#145

Post by dragonwriter »

DrJosiah wrote: post #143
jacquesm wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

50% of the population not showing up shows there is a huge problem. There are only 22 countries left in the world where voting is compulsory and only a few of those are countries that have good reasons for that rule. As soon as your country appears in lists that also contain 'North Korea', 'Congo', 'Lebanon' and 'Thailand' when it comes to political matters you really have to wonder if you're on the right path. The o…

Having lived in a non-compulsory voting country for my entire life (US), the 50% turnout rate (more or less) is deplorable. In my mind, there are two points about compulsory voting that are nice: 1) The government must make voting available (various Republican-lead areas in the US are trying to reduce voting hours to limit voting for poor and minority voters) 2) Employers must make it possible for employees to take t…

> I'd take compulsory voting in the US just to say "fuck you" to the various groups that have been disenfranchising female, poor, and/or minority voters for generations.

Those organizations probably would embrace compulsory voting without making it easier for the targetted groups to vote in practice, because they'd probably see being able to punish them for not voting an extra bonus on top of disenfranchising them in the first place.

I mean, do you think campaigns would stop blanketing neighborhoods expected to vote for the opposing candidate with false information about voting times and locations if the payoff went from "they don't vote, improving our chance of winning" to "they don't vote, improving our chance of winning, plus they are compelled to pay fines for not voting"?

Re: LIVE NOW: Glenn Greenwald, Assange, and Kim Dot Com in NZ

#146

Post by DrJosiah »

dragonwriter wrote: post #145
DrJosiah wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having lived in a non-compulsory voting country for my entire life (US), the 50% turnout rate (more or less) is deplorable. In my mind, there are two points about compulsory voting that are nice: 1) The government must make voting available (various Republican-lead areas in the US are trying to reduce voting hours to limit voting for poor and minority voters) 2) Employers must make it possible for employees to take t…

> I'd take compulsory voting in the US just to say "fuck you" to the various groups that have been disenfranchising female, poor, and/or minority voters for generations. Those organizations probably would embrace compulsory voting without making it easier for the targetted groups to vote in practice, because they'd probably see being able to punish them for not voting an extra bonus on top of disenfranchising them in…

I would assume that canvassing with false information would then become a federal crime, as it would be a conspiracy to prevent a legally compulsory act. Add in bounties for whistle-blowers who can show conspiracies like this, and internal greed will prevent these types of shenanigans.

Voting is a fundamental right to self-expression and self-determination. And I think that any attempt to prevent a citizen from voting or preventing a legitimate vote from counting (barring votes that are unable to be interpreted) should be considered treason.

Re: LIVE NOW: Glenn Greenwald, Assange, and Kim Dot Com in NZ

#149

Post by dragonwriter »

DrJosiah wrote: post #146
dragonwriter wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd take compulsory voting in the US just to say "fuck you" to the various groups that have been disenfranchising female, poor, and/or minority voters for generations. Those organizations probably would embrace compulsory voting without making it easier for the targetted groups to vote in practice, because they'd probably see being able to punish them for not voting an extra bonus on top of disenfranchising them in…

I would assume that canvassing with false information would then become a federal crime, as it would be a conspiracy to prevent a legally compulsory act. Add in bounties for whistle-blowers who can show conspiracies like this, and internal greed will prevent these types of shenanigans. Voting is a fundamental right to self-expression and self-determination. And I think that any attempt to prevent a citizen from votin…

> I would assume that canvassing with false information would then become a federal crime, as it would be a conspiracy to prevent a legally compulsory act.

Lots of the suppression tactics that are like this (as opposed to the suppression-disguised-as-anti-fraud efforts) are already federal crimes. Doesn't stop them from happening.

Making voting compulsory wouldn't change this (nor would it stop people from proposing anti-fraud efforts that make voting more difficult in practice. Just because voting is compulsory for people who are qualified doesn't mean that there aren't non-citizens and criminals who are forbidden to vote, and that you can't sell bureaucratic "safeguards" that make it more difficult for qualified people to prove that they are qualified in order to vote as mechanism to prevent the unqualified from voting.)

Re: LIVE NOW: Glenn Greenwald, Assange, and Kim Dot Com in NZ

#150

Post by ericHosick »

general_failure wrote: post #24
ericHosick wrote: post #4

Will any of this really make any difference? I feel that, in the long run, it won't. Edit: And to further clarify my question (since I'm being down-voted for a very legitimate question)... I know a lot of smart people and none of them (as in 0 of them) seem to take any notice to these conversations. There is a lot of apathy towards mass surveillance. Sure, the conversation comes up a lot on HN but HN is not a very go…

You should have a little faith in humanity. Just give it some time.

I think a majority of people (80/20 rule or even 90/10 in this case) have great intentions. Don't read into what I said as not having "faith".

Good intentions don't yield desired results: especially when people have very little understanding of the consequences of their actions.

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