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A live streaming platform dedicated to code

devv.tv

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Re: A live streaming platform dedicated to code

#21
post #19
post #17

I've been streaming a second monitor most weekend for the last month on thing ranging from writing blog posts to building iOS apps. The hard thing has always been trying to separate config files & notifications from user-visible streams. I think it would be interesting to have the stream be text input aware, so that it can showcase the text currently being selected or edited in a way that highlights it better. That a…

Twitch uses IRC for their chat, what platform are you streaming on / using?

I've been using twitch.tv, but found the IRC to be unreliable. I tried multiple IRC clients and they disconnect and reconnect regularly, and often miss messages which appear on the website.

Re: A live streaming platform dedicated to code

#22
post #18

A couple months ago, someone asked "Why isn't there a twitch.tv for programming?": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8039299 I believe my answer still holds true. Programming isn't as well-suited for constant live streaming because: a) The viewer can't leave the stream in the background (as you would television) b) A very large amount of dead air where nothing is happening and the streamer needs to fill dead air.…

I concur wholeheartedly. I've watched people code on streams during game jams and even then I was quickly bored to tears. Most coding is even less exciting than coding games. Some tasks just aren't well suited to streaming, and coding is one of them.

I guess we just need to remix it with http://www.hypermasher.com/hyperlapse

Re: A live streaming platform dedicated to code

#23
post #3

Person behind devv.tv here. I built this landing page at the end of the last Ludum Dare compo/when Notch began streaming his Doom build. I'm currently trying to think of ways to attract developers to stream. There seems to be lots of interest in people wanting to watch good quality streams but I feel the challenge lies in providing these good quality streams. I plan on streaming myself building the MVP in the near fu…

Neat! This seems like a really good idea. I'd recommend focusing on a particular niche of developers who all gather in one place, and who have a strong interest in learning more and watching others code. Game developers would spring to mind but I'm sure there are other even better groups for what you intend. Then, if you can persuade one or two of the stars of that community to use your platform, you should get a dec…

I think that's a great idea, and launching it at a hack-a-thon might be a simple way for people to all do it together and share it with the rest of the world.

Re: A live streaming platform dedicated to code

#24

A couple months ago, someone asked "Why isn't there a twitch.tv for programming?": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8039299 I believe my answer still holds true. Programming isn't as well-suited for constant live streaming because: a) The viewer can't leave the stream in the background (as you would television) b) A very large amount of dead air where nothing is happening and the streamer needs to fill dead air.…

Yes, I agree that some of those answers currently hold true. But what's to stop them changing?

I feel most of those issues you mentioned can either be solved with technological solutions (pause, rewind, ffwd a stream) or with streamer education and practice (talking through your thought process, increasing font sizes).

I do, however, have lots more to research and understand before I can be confident there are solutions to all the problems currently faced.

Re: A live streaming platform dedicated to code

#25

A couple months ago, someone asked "Why isn't there a twitch.tv for programming?": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8039299 I believe my answer still holds true. Programming isn't as well-suited for constant live streaming because: a) The viewer can't leave the stream in the background (as you would television) b) A very large amount of dead air where nothing is happening and the streamer needs to fill dead air.…

Edit: oops, double posted.

Re: A live streaming platform dedicated to code

#26

A couple months ago, someone asked "Why isn't there a twitch.tv for programming?": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8039299 I believe my answer still holds true. Programming isn't as well-suited for constant live streaming because: a) The viewer can't leave the stream in the background (as you would television) b) A very large amount of dead air where nothing is happening and the streamer needs to fill dead air.…

Well yeah a lot of programming can be dead air, but consider:

* Some programming, like quick bursts of activity after an epiphany, can be very lively. These moments can be surfaced to viewers if the right signals are used.

* It can be a million people with an audience of 10, not just 10 people with an audience of a million. It could be useful for real-time distributed projects to have collaborators' streams open. Or track a favorite open-source project whenever the developer is working on it.

* It would also work well if scheduled and with a specific task in mind, especially if the programmer is a "rockstar". (Similar to Notch's recent performance.) e.g. "7pm-8pm PST Linus will begin Git forking refactor". As a performance, could also be used for code walkthroughs instead of actual coding.

* Even though it's live-streamed, it can be still be packaged into highlights later, and the best way to do it is to have the raw content available for anyone to remix it. Different work can also be curated together to highlight a common theme.

* Regarding video quality, that's an easy fix given that most programming remains text-based. The obvious solution is to capture high-level terminal content rather than just plain old video. A coding session could then even be curated into posts like http://asciicasts.com/.

It's interesting to see different people's workflows and mindsets, so I think it's worth pursuing this, and it could be very popular with the number of people learning to code right now.

Re: A live streaming platform dedicated to code

#27
I love it, I've been considering how to livestream real coding best for quite a while, in terms of personal streaming. Having a dedicated site is great.

I'm seeing some skepticism over all for a variety of reasons, certainly valid concerns, but I think they largely frame it in terms of traditional "attention grabbing" streaming, like game play. The other day Notch was streaming his doom-on-the-web experimenting, which was really fascinating to watch. Imagine if Bret Victor was live streaming his playful explorations of coding and visualization, discussing his thinking as he progressed. To me, those are killer apps.

I think programming streaming is essentially different from, for example, video game streaming.

It has many specific qualities that make it an interesting platform. Education, a window into true software development, and the highest integrity source control possible.

It's definitely true that the 'pace' is different, especially if it isn't "showcase" programming. I think the strengths lie in a couple key areas.

It's extremely honestly educational. In the programming industry you see a lot of canned talks, which are great for introducing new things, showing specific techniques, they have lots of uses. On the down side though, they are very misleading to learners. The work programmers do is not largely blazing away along the perfect path of a problem, whipping out code as fast you can type (or copy paste). It messy, complicate, has lots of fumbling and dead ends, and it's more about thinking hard than typing fast (not that fast typing is bad, it's handy to get your ideas out of your head quickly, it's just not job #1).

It's "boring" in a switch off your brain, entertain me at all times sense. If you literally streamed hidden spy cams of most programming, you would get very little interaction. I think it's intellectually very interesting in an engaging way, to watch others wrestle with problems, to see how they do things differently, and gain insights into a very intimate process.

I livestreamed a bit of turn based gaming on the release of a game, and it was remarkable. Most streamers day one were tearing through the game at a relatively fast pace. I was taking it slow. Some people complained about the speed, but my goal was to "full plan" working the thoughts and strategy options through, and talking through it end to end. Some people were frustrated by that, looking for more of the other styles of streaming, but I gained a small audience (averaging 20s, peaking at 80s, it felt decent for a new streamer). I talked out my thought process, which helped improve it. My brain was 'fully switched on' in a state of flow. Just these things helped my play immensely. I also interacted with my audience, which helped that much more. A live stream can be your pair programmer. You can explore new ideas and possibilities.

I imagine it more like when an SC2 player is exploring a build. It's "dull and boring" because it's relatively predictable, but as they explain their thoughts and discover new timings and possibilities, it catches a lot of peoples interest.

Another important aspect for me is the timeline. Maybe not every minute is interesting, but perhaps with a highlights feature you could step through a process and show example. "See, this is where I made the architectural goof. You can see hints here and here showing that it's problematic. Here's where the realization happened and why, and here is the much more satisfying fix".

What if you had a recording of every moment of the programming of a non-trivial system? You could do great research. You could study the kind of mistakes people make, do minute-by-minute root cause analysis. My only concern here is that narrating what you are doing, and having a live audience may alter the style of your work. Can you still complete your best work under these circumstances? It's an interesting question, and I've love to explore the answer. I think it's definitely a different approach from the solo quiet solitary work style, but if my experience with streaming gaming was an indication it's one you can leverage into high engagement and flow. The question is can you do all of the great work you need to in front of an audience?

To me, with a timeline, livestreaming and archiving is the ultimate in source control. What if you could trace a line of code to a check in to a time stamp to the video of that line of code being created? What if you could stitch that all together to a work item or ticket, and get video of the design and thinking process, to understanding why the code is a certain way? That's exciting.

One of my biggest concerns is the licensing policy. I need to own my code. I need to own my ideas. Maybe it's open source software. But as a streaming site, you are getting a non-exclusive, revocable right to host my livestreams. In return you can play ads and host my archives.

I've thought about this quite a bit. I want to be a part of this. I've submitted my email on the website. I believe you can also email me here.

Thank you for embarking on this adventure.

Re: A live streaming platform dedicated to code

#28
post #18

A couple months ago, someone asked "Why isn't there a twitch.tv for programming?": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8039299 I believe my answer still holds true. Programming isn't as well-suited for constant live streaming because: a) The viewer can't leave the stream in the background (as you would television) b) A very large amount of dead air where nothing is happening and the streamer needs to fill dead air.…

I concur wholeheartedly. I've watched people code on streams during game jams and even then I was quickly bored to tears. Most coding is even less exciting than coding games. Some tasks just aren't well suited to streaming, and coding is one of them.

I've watched plenty of stream and I agree sometimes there can be dull moments. The same could be said for any type of live stream though. Often this is down to the streamer rather than the subject matter.

Watching quill18 fix a bug and be visibly excited about his code working (raising his hands and shouting something along the lines of 'fuck yeahhhh') during the last Ludum Dare was such a warming experience which mimicked the internal monologue I often have when a piece of code finally works as I expected it too.

There's obviously a demand for people who want to watch coding steams, my biggest challenge is ensuring there are people who can offer streams worth watching.

Re: A live streaming platform dedicated to code

#29

A couple months ago, someone asked "Why isn't there a twitch.tv for programming?": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8039299 I believe my answer still holds true. Programming isn't as well-suited for constant live streaming because: a) The viewer can't leave the stream in the background (as you would television) b) A very large amount of dead air where nothing is happening and the streamer needs to fill dead air.…

I agree with most of these points, but there is one niche where this could make a lot of sense: programming contests (e.g. topcoder, google codejam). These are very similar to sports to begin with, and it can be quite interesting to watch somebody implement a moderately complex algorithm in 15 minutes.

Re: A live streaming platform dedicated to code

#30

I love it, I've been considering how to livestream real coding best for quite a while, in terms of personal streaming. Having a dedicated site is great. I'm seeing some skepticism over all for a variety of reasons, certainly valid concerns, but I think they largely frame it in terms of traditional "attention grabbing" streaming, like game play. The other day Notch was streaming his doom-on-the-web experimenting, whic…

> To me, with a timeline, livestreaming and archiving is the ultimate in source control. What if you could trace a line of code to a check in to a time stamp to the video of that line of code being created? What if you could stitch that all together to a work item or ticket, and get video of the design and thinking process, to understanding why the code is a certain way? That's exciting.

Isn't that the exact use case for code/commit comments? :P

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