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Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

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Re: Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

#41
post #30

The really interesting story here is that if drivers are so willing to switch networks for better opportunities, there isn't a compelling reason for Uber to have the valuation that they do. The value of Uber isn't really in the tech or the app - it's in the networks of riders and drivers in each city. If each of those can be aggregated into some other kind of service, where Uber, Lyft, etc. are just providers of paym…

This. Basically while there are network effects in the sense that any provider (Uber, Lyft etc.) will need to have some critical mass before there are enough drivers and enough riders, both can subscribe to multiple providers and there is no long-term stickiness at the moment. In other words, this is not a winner take all market with FB/LinkedIn/Twitter type network stickiness and the overall market is still fair gam…

How would you say self-driving vehicles fit into this? Supposedly they're rolling out in ~3-5 years, and with self-driving vehicles, you no longer need the middle man managing a fleet of contractors.

EDIT: I'm willing to me a Long Bet [1] with anyone regarding fully autonomous self driving vehicles in regular use in 6 years.

[1] http://longbets.org/ ; http://longbets.org/rules/

Re: Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

#42
The drivers, who are mostly comprised of SUV and black car drivers, have planned a protest outside of the Long Island City Uber Office

I wonder how much good the office protest will do versus just emailing Uber saying "Adios Uber! I'm headed to Lyft because of..."

The on site picketing made sense for blue collar industrial and government workers because the switching cost of quitting your job and (hoping) to get hired at another plant would have been very high. For hire drivers working for Uber and Lyft essentially have close to zero switching costs. A demonstration of that would seem more effective than picketing.

Re: Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

#43
post #31

I'm going to go ahead and assume there's an app that aggregates Uber/Lyft/whatever and just gets you the closest driver regardless of network. Uber's service goes from being a premium product to a replaceable commodity in a blink.

Well, Uber, Lyft, and whoever will fight such an aggregator for obvious reasons, and attempt to prevent them from accessing their APIs.

Already happened at least once: http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/02/corral-lyft/

Re: Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

#44
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if drivers are so willing to switch networks for better opportunities, there isn't a compelling reason for Uber to have the valuation that they do. There are two sides to the story: If customers are so enamored with Uber that they wouldn't consider Lyft or the other services, Uber will still be in control. EDIT TO CLARIFY: Did not mean to suggest that customers are indeed enamored with Uber. Only wanted to point ou…

There is absolutely a large chunk of the rides-for-hire passenger population that is entirely mercenary in its affections. Some people are loyal Uber passengers or loyal Lyft passengers or whatever, but a lot of people are happy to go where the bargains are.

[deleted]

Re: Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

#45
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if drivers are so willing to switch networks for better opportunities, there isn't a compelling reason for Uber to have the valuation that they do. There are two sides to the story: If customers are so enamored with Uber that they wouldn't consider Lyft or the other services, Uber will still be in control. EDIT TO CLARIFY: Did not mean to suggest that customers are indeed enamored with Uber. Only wanted to point ou…

There is absolutely a large chunk of the rides-for-hire passenger population that is entirely mercenary in its affections. Some people are loyal Uber passengers or loyal Lyft passengers or whatever, but a lot of people are happy to go where the bargains are.

I think you're right that isn't out of loyalty that people use one or the other service. But it's de facto loyalty - also known as (extreme) laziness. Most people are using Lyft and Uber for the convenience. Thus if both are about the same level of convenience they will probably not shop around for a new app even if the competitor has a lower rate. They will go to the Lyft or the Uber app if it is already on their phone. More advanced users will probably have both - but that is a minority of users. So it's critical for one of these two apps to be the first installed on the phone.

Re: Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

#46
Wait, strike? First off...IANAUD. If you become an Uber Driver are you under any sort of contract? Are you now an employee (W-2) of Uber or free agent contractor (1099). If drivers think they can get better fares elsewhere... go nuts and do it. Yay economics!

I feel like I am missing something here.

Re: Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

#47
post #4

Statists, take notice of how improvements in work conditions come from competition and not from regulation. They're better off now than through the monopoly of taxi medallions.

Why am I being modded down?

I don't yet have down vote privilege, but I have to imagine The GP (your original comment) got nuked because it is both needlessly inflammatory and also lacks a substantive argument. As for your response to dragonwriter, you appear to be talking past one another; of course markets are matchmaking services for buyers and sellers by definition, but what you've done here is mistake this specific case of relatively frictionless movement between employers increasing the surplus of the employees for an indictment of regulation in general.

This particular case seems to realize said friction (and consequently, the surplus/benefit for the drivers) precisely because the service itself being offered by Lyft/Uber is market like, and the end-consumer product is in fact offered by the drivers themselves. It is not clear to me (or the others disagreeing with you here evidently) that regulation has any bearing on this conversation -- in a world where both Lyft and Uber's respective operations are regulated by the state, the power is still in the drivers' hands because Lyft and Uber are competing to offer the drivers' services.

This is not exactly the common formula for most employee-employer relationships, although it may become more common as this business model takes off. What dragonwriter seems to be saying IMO is that there are certainly cases that don't fit this mold that are good arguments for state intervention; among them are cases where there is greater friction for the employees themselves due to the nature of the business; lack of information about compensation, working hours, or other metrics to evaluate the given positions; or, as dragonwriter said, physical proximity to the workplace itself.

If you would be so kind, please elucidate how you feel this particular seemingly unique scenario is generalizable to regulation in general.

PS: Apologies if this is wordy and difficult to follow, I have a hard time writing coherently into this tiny box.

Re: Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

#48
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Basically while there are network effects in the sense that any provider (Uber, Lyft etc.) will need to have some critical mass before there are enough drivers and enough riders, both can subscribe to multiple providers and there is no long-term stickiness at the moment. In other words, this is not a winner take all market with FB/LinkedIn/Twitter type network stickiness and the overall market is still fair gam…

How would you say self-driving vehicles fit into this? Supposedly they're rolling out in ~3-5 years, and with self-driving vehicles, you no longer need the middle man managing a fleet of contractors. EDIT: I'm willing to me a Long Bet [1] with anyone regarding fully autonomous self driving vehicles in regular use in 6 years. [1] http://longbets.org/ ; http://longbets.org/rules/

Self-driving vehicles are the final commoditization of the rides-for-hire business. Personally, I'd be very skeptical about the 3-5 year time frame, but clearly they're coming at some point. When they do, I can't see any rides-for-hire business having gross margins higher than 5% (though the size of the rides-for-hire market may well expand greatly). Barrier for entry is basically nonexistent.

Re: Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

#49
post #9

What would it take for somebody to just build a free, open-source matchmaking service for drivers and riders? It doesn't seem like what Lyft or Uber offer is very technically demanding (perhaps doing it at scale is), and presumably you could attract a lot more drivers by offering them the chance to keep ~99% of the fare. The existence of Lyft demonstrates that Uber's first-mover advantage isn't insurmountable, so who…

I think Sidecar lets each driver set their own rate. It would take a whole lot more than 1% of the fare to keep the system running though.

Why would you say that?

Re: Uber Drivers “Strike” and Switch to Lyft Over Fares and Conditions

#50
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's happening right now to Uber and Lyft is a metaphor for how the free market works. You've touched on a few interesting points yourself: "provided entirely by one worker" : this is like admitting that the problem comes from injecting hierarchy into the system, which in a free market can only happen voluntarily if both parties benefit from it, but in a statist society is imposed or restricted by the economy plann…

> every market is a matchmaking service between the seller and the buyer No, markets are not matchmaking services. Markets are places where people make matches, matchmaking services are a service that is sold in the market. Notably, its the core of the service Uber and Lyft provide, and its low friction to switch, as a user or supplier, between them. This is a special characteristic of the kind of service Uber and Ly…

I tried to respond on the other sub-thread about getting downmodded, but I think this is probably more concise than mine. I think the key here is that workers are always going to be better off when they have more bargaining leverage with their employer / are competed for more rabidly, and competition is fierce for drivers between Uber and Lyft more because of their business model than any regulatory influence (or lack thereof).
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