Live data from Hacker News

No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

time.com

151–158 of 158 posts

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#151
post #88
post #86

Did they really prove there was 'no association' or did they just fail to reject the null hypothesis that there is no association? These are diabolically different things!

Indeed they are, but according to the null hypothesis precept, without persuasive contradicting evidence, there is no association. The burden is on experimental evidence to contradict that assumption, and if positive evidence isn't present, then the default assumption is correct. Think about what proving no association actually means. That would require proof of a negative, which is a widely recognized logical error,…

> if positive evidence isn't present, then the default assumption is correct

What you have said above is horribly wrong and is exactly the point I am making. If it is true then I can prove anything I like just by designing a bad enough experiment.

For example, suppose I want to prove that the moon is made of green cheese. I can start with a null hypothesis that it IS made of green cheese. Then I can point my telescope in the wrong direction and find no evidence that it is not made of green cheese. Using your logic I am free to then conclude that my null hypothesis is true.

You cannot just make any null hypothesis you want and then when you fail to prove it untrue, claim it is true. If you want to make a positive claim about the null hypothesis (for example, claim there is no association between salt and blood pressure) then you have to test it directly with positive evidence in its own right.

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#152

This article is BS. I mean, its a FUD advertorial. I say that based on my personal experience: A nurse in the clinic checked my BP (as a routine) when I went to get checked for some eye infection. And she was shocked that it was 170/100 (normal is 120/80). It was shocking for her (and of course me) because: I was 25 I looked healthy and lean (not too thin). I showed/experienced no signs of hyper tension. My eating ha…

Which is why for so long people believed that salt was the cause. But in your situation salt is also a proxy for a lot of other things that were wrong with your diet. Gobs of processes carbs, no 'good' cholesterol, a lack of protein, just to get started. Since anything that cuts processed salt considerably almost assuredly improves those other metrics, I'm not sure why you believe your anecdotal evidence is so convin…

"Anecdotal evidence" is acceptable if everyone said salt is healthy and I claimed otherwise.

btw, my diet, even though had a lot of frozen food, wasn't loaded with carbs, and was sufficient in protein.

Back to the point: When doctors I trust say that I'm better off cutting salt and sodium intake, I'll cut down on it. And because its the trusted doctors that say so, I consider it as non Anecdotal Evidence

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#153
post #61

This article is BS. I mean, its a FUD advertorial. I say that based on my personal experience: A nurse in the clinic checked my BP (as a routine) when I went to get checked for some eye infection. And she was shocked that it was 170/100 (normal is 120/80). It was shocking for her (and of course me) because: I was 25 I looked healthy and lean (not too thin). I showed/experienced no signs of hyper tension. My eating ha…

You made changes to your diet other than just reducing salt intake. How can you conclude it was the salt?!

Stopped eating frozen food and reduced salt. Frozen food contains a ton of sodium, which is a great preservative.

I started eating out more often because of this, which is not low on Sodium, but its not as loaded as it is in the frozen foods.

Anyone who thinks there's an ounce of truth in the Time article, try living on a frozen food only diet (at your own risk) for a few months.

Check your blood pressure regularly. if after 3 or 6 months, your BP remains the same, Salt and Frozen Food industry would be ready to pay you millions to publicize your anecdotal test.

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#154
post #116

This article is BS. I mean, its a FUD advertorial. I say that based on my personal experience: A nurse in the clinic checked my BP (as a routine) when I went to get checked for some eye infection. And she was shocked that it was 170/100 (normal is 120/80). It was shocking for her (and of course me) because: I was 25 I looked healthy and lean (not too thin). I showed/experienced no signs of hyper tension. My eating ha…

How is this comment downvoted?! A terrible article from Time magazine going against what a lot of institutions doing research are saying. Not like this is controversy to get eyeballs or perhaps a study backed by industry to confuse people. And suddenly there are a lot of experts on nutrition and diet on a startup forum.

Thanks Alecco! I guess there are a lot of Salt sympathizers on HN :)

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#155
post #151
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed they are, but according to the null hypothesis precept, without persuasive contradicting evidence, there is no association. The burden is on experimental evidence to contradict that assumption, and if positive evidence isn't present, then the default assumption is correct. Think about what proving no association actually means. That would require proof of a negative, which is a widely recognized logical error,…

> if positive evidence isn't present, then the default assumption is correct What you have said above is horribly wrong and is exactly the point I am making. If it is true then I can prove anything I like just by designing a bad enough experiment. For example, suppose I want to prove that the moon is made of green cheese. I can start with a null hypothesis that it IS made of green cheese. Then I can point my telescop…

>> if positive evidence isn't present, then the default assumption is correct

> What you have said above is horribly wrong and is exactly the point I am making. If it is true then I can prove anything I like just by designing a bad enough experiment.

You obviously do not understand the null hypothesis. Under the null hypothesis, a claim is assumed to be false unless and until persuasive evidence shows otherwise. Only psychologists think a bad experiment contradicts the default assumption of no effect. Serious science must pass muster with other equally serious scientists, who will call out anyone trying to cheat.

> For example, suppose I want to prove that the moon is made of green cheese. I can start with a null hypothesis that it IS made of green cheese.

That is certainly not what "null hypothesis" means -- your utterly mistaken view asserts its opposite, the alternative hypothesis. Please learn anything at all about this topic before assuming you understand it.

> You cannot just make any null hypothesis you want and then when you fail to prove it untrue, claim it is true.

Honestly. Learn what it means before trying to discuss it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Null_hypothesis

Quote: "In statistical inference of observed data of a scientific experiment, the null hypothesis refers to a general statement or default position that there is no relationship between two measured phenomena. Rejecting or disproving the null hypothesis – and thus concluding that there are grounds for believing that there is a relationship between two phenomena or that a potential treatment has a measurable effect – is a central task in the modern practice of science, and gives a precise sense in which a claim is capable of being proven false."

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#156
post #155
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if positive evidence isn't present, then the default assumption is correct What you have said above is horribly wrong and is exactly the point I am making. If it is true then I can prove anything I like just by designing a bad enough experiment. For example, suppose I want to prove that the moon is made of green cheese. I can start with a null hypothesis that it IS made of green cheese. Then I can point my telescop…

>> if positive evidence isn't present, then the default assumption is correct > What you have said above is horribly wrong and is exactly the point I am making. If it is true then I can prove anything I like just by designing a bad enough experiment. You obviously do not understand the null hypothesis. Under the null hypothesis, a claim is assumed to be false unless and until persuasive evidence shows otherwise. Only…

Well, your insulting tone is not particularly conducive to ongoing discussion ... but can't you see that Wikipedia is exactly contradicting you?

Try and find anything there that backs up this statement:

>> if positive evidence isn't present, then the default assumption is correct

Quoting from the same page:

"...it should be noted that the null hypothesis is never proved or established, but is possibly disproved, in the course of experimentation."

And again:

"We may, however, choose any null hypothesis we please, provided it is exact."

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#157
post #156
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> if positive evidence isn't present, then the default assumption is correct > What you have said above is horribly wrong and is exactly the point I am making. If it is true then I can prove anything I like just by designing a bad enough experiment. You obviously do not understand the null hypothesis. Under the null hypothesis, a claim is assumed to be false unless and until persuasive evidence shows otherwise. Only…

Well, your insulting tone is not particularly conducive to ongoing discussion ... but can't you see that Wikipedia is exactly contradicting you? Try and find anything there that backs up this statement: >> if positive evidence isn't present, then the default assumption is correct Quoting from the same page: "...it should be noted that the null hypothesis is never proved or established, but is possibly disproved, in t…

> can't you see that Wikipedia is exactly contradicting you?

You need to learn about the null hypothesis. And science. The null hypothesis denies the reality of the asserted hypothesis until positive evidence supports it. How difficult is that? The default assumption is that there is no effect, no connection between a stated hypothesis and reality.

If I make the claim that Bigfoot exists, and then set out to test my claim using science, under the null hypothesis the default assumption is that Bigfoot does not exist. This means you have it exactly backwards.

> ... your insulting tone is not particularly conducive to ongoing discussion

A description is not an insult. Learn this difference also.

Learn about the null hypothesis. Discover that the null hypothesis cannot be used to make a positive claim or assertion, as you did earlier with your green cheese example. That is reserved to the alternative hypothesis, which is how pseudoscience works, i.e. make a claim and wait for someone else to disprove it with the impossible standard of "proof of a negative" or "absence of evidence":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_absence

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#158
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/09/the_nanny_state_didnt... The vast majority of the people complaining about the Big Soda ban don't buy big sodas, and those most enraged about the Buckyballs ban either already have them or would never want them. So the reaction has nothing to do with the products themselves, the rage is on a theoretical level, "I don't want government intruding in my private choices." But they a…

vast majority of the people complaining about the Big Soda ban don't buy big sodas Isn't that a bit like saying that only African Americans are allowed to stand up to racism? the rage is on a theoretical level If individual liberty and personal responsibilities are only theories. I don't happen to agree. But they already do this in a gazillion different ways So because they get away with it in harder-to-grasp and har…

That is kind of the entire point of the article. This quote summarizes the argument which you paraphrased after pointing out "You have no idea what you are thinking".

The argument to spell it out in a clearer way than the author is a reductio ad absurdum:

1) The system protects us from unsafe airline and car practices.

2) The system tries to ban toys and sodas.

3) Therefore, the system can protect us from anything that is bad.

The conclusion is clearly false, because lots of bad things still happen and you can't engineer a perfectly safe system. The omnipotent entity he refers is the the government, market, or whatever entity makes decisions you don't have to. In the full article there are lots of examples, from banking to whatever where the train of thought jumps from one type of savior to another, without ever pinning it down on the individual.

Post reply on HN