I think he's wrong about one thing. A good BMS not only monitors cell voltages, it has the ability to bypass some charging current around individual cells. Not a lot, but enough to balance the charge of all cells over a cycle. That capability can do wonders for the reliability and life of a pack. While I worked in EVs for 6 years, I have no knowledge of the Tesla BMS - they were not our customer and I worked mostly i…
Here is the spec sheet for the main square chip on that board. http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq76pl536a-q1.pdf You're right. It does have a cell balancing feature.
Inside a Tesla Model S Battery Pack
31–40 of 83 posts
Re: Inside a Tesla Model S Battery Pack
#32Asides from price, why not engineer a battery that did not rely on 18650 cylindrical cells? Seems like a bit of extra weight and lost capacity/space by using tons of 18650 batteries which each have their own casing instead of just making a 'brick' style battery, similar to those found in mobile phones (but obviously much larger).
Re: Inside a Tesla Model S Battery Pack
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Every article I've seen about the battery says that it doesn't use the usual chemistry, and that only the form factor is standard. I figured you would have something factual to say, given that you're saying you know it's dangerous.
I'm not sure what you are trying to do - but I almost fell for it. First, I specifically stated "3100mAH NCR-18650s" which is a specific part, not a form factor which anyone who handles these batteries would know - which was your first (confused) reply. Second, from everywhere I have read, like (1) these are just standard cells. Lastly, I was originally stating that I would feel unsafe being around this technology. I…
I'm sure given the 'right' conditions you could get a catastrophic release of energy out of a pack this size but I'm fairly certain that the occupants of the car would not be in a state where they would realize that the battery had also exploded since they'd be too distracted by evaporating themselves.
Re: Inside a Tesla Model S Battery Pack
#34Asides from price, why not engineer a battery that did not rely on 18650 cylindrical cells? Seems like a bit of extra weight and lost capacity/space by using tons of 18650 batteries which each have their own casing instead of just making a 'brick' style battery, similar to those found in mobile phones (but obviously much larger).
Hopefully someone knowledgeable can elucidate properly but I believe cylinders are an inherently good shape for certain types of battery. The internal chemical process relies on two surfaces being in contact. You can roll up two surfaces and put them inside a cylinder which gives you lots of contact surface area in a small volume.
Re: Inside a Tesla Model S Battery Pack
#35That was one very quick trip to the recycler, pack dates from August 2013. Crashed car? Totally nuts to work with DC voltages this high without taking safety precautions. Anything over 50V DC is to be treated with very serious respect. AC is different, you get a good number of opportunities to dis-engage, but with DC your muscles contract and that's that. I'd rather mess with 2 KV AC than with 200 V DC. Lovely engine…
Also, if you don't mind me asking, how much did your battery bank cost?
Re: Inside a Tesla Model S Battery Pack
#36That was one very quick trip to the recycler, pack dates from August 2013. Crashed car? Totally nuts to work with DC voltages this high without taking safety precautions. Anything over 50V DC is to be treated with very serious respect. AC is different, you get a good number of opportunities to dis-engage, but with DC your muscles contract and that's that. I'd rather mess with 2 KV AC than with 200 V DC. Lovely engine…
Re: Inside a Tesla Model S Battery Pack
#37Asides from price, why not engineer a battery that did not rely on 18650 cylindrical cells? Seems like a bit of extra weight and lost capacity/space by using tons of 18650 batteries which each have their own casing instead of just making a 'brick' style battery, similar to those found in mobile phones (but obviously much larger).
I wonder as well if the honeycomb type structure formed is inherently less prone to structural deformation.
Re: Inside a Tesla Model S Battery Pack
#38That was one very quick trip to the recycler, pack dates from August 2013. Crashed car? Totally nuts to work with DC voltages this high without taking safety precautions. Anything over 50V DC is to be treated with very serious respect. AC is different, you get a good number of opportunities to dis-engage, but with DC your muscles contract and that's that. I'd rather mess with 2 KV AC than with 200 V DC. Lovely engine…
Not sure where this myth started, the idea that somehow AC is less dangerous to handle at high voltages over DC. Wall socket AC alternates at ~50Hz, that's an oscillation every 0.02sec, for perspective, the average human reaction time is in the range of 0.15 to 0.3sec [Wikipedia]. There almost no chance that you willingly disengage a circuit once it's made for both high voltage AC or DC. Be careful whenever handling…
The DC damage is a condition called 'muscular tetanus'. The main risk with AC at medium voltages (say 40 to 250 V) is that your heart goes haywire. Though those voltages could easily kill you too.
Yes, you should always be careful. But DC is most definitely more dangerous at the same voltage once you get over 48 V DC (the so called 'safe voltage', but that's a misnomer because under the wrong conditions voltages lower than that can still be fatal). The critical component by the way is current not voltage. Voltage really doesn't kill but current will. AC voltages are typically reported RMS, whereas with DC the 'peak' is also the average. Assuming the DC supply can produce as much current as the AC supply.
Being shocked by neither is good. But the choice between 200V DC and 200V AC is a fairly easy one for me and I've been shocked multiple times by both during my very long time of taking stuff apart and fixing things (yes, I try very hard to avoid that). The AC ones were mostly non-events, the DC ones were (even at lower currents) things to remember years later. Quite possibly that's not correlated with safety but it is definitely a data point (or rather several of them). Avoiding being shocked is a very good way of never having to find out how accurate this all is. One particularly memorable incident was hooking myself accidentally to the HV supply of an old tube radio. Don't do that. And be extremely careful with capacitors and DC batteries, they can supply a ton of current long enough to kill you. HV transformers much less so. (At least, the ones that you would normally encounter outside of industrial gear). And I suspect that the internal resistance of those supplies has a lot to do with whether you're going to be dead or writing about your experiences because it has a very direct impact you the current resulting. HV AC supplies that will supply very high current are hard to find, usually are transformers with relatively thin secondary windings. A battery pack like this is made to supply 100's of Amps at 100's of volts. That's lethal, make no mistake about that.
That battery bank cost $7200, 2005 or so prices.
More than you ever wanted to know:
Re: Inside a Tesla Model S Battery Pack
#39Asides from price, why not engineer a battery that did not rely on 18650 cylindrical cells? Seems like a bit of extra weight and lost capacity/space by using tons of 18650 batteries which each have their own casing instead of just making a 'brick' style battery, similar to those found in mobile phones (but obviously much larger).
The 18650 cell is the most-produced Li-Ion battery cell in the world, and Tesla has been enjoying the benefits of low prices on these cells as Roadster/Model S/Model X battery pack development has coincided with the switch to laptop form factors where this battery cell doesn't fit. In fact, Panasonic has re-opened production lines for these cells that were shuttered due to falling demand, due to purchase agreements with Tesla. Tesla's incredible demand for batteries means that cell choice is a very important decision. It's worth noting that Tesla's engineering leadership has indicated they are both form-factor and chemistry agnostic, and will always go with the option that makes most economic sense.
Re: Inside a Tesla Model S Battery Pack
#40Asides from price, why not engineer a battery that did not rely on 18650 cylindrical cells? Seems like a bit of extra weight and lost capacity/space by using tons of 18650 batteries which each have their own casing instead of just making a 'brick' style battery, similar to those found in mobile phones (but obviously much larger).
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/elon-musk-boeing-7...
"Large cells without enough space between them to isolate against the cell-to-cell thermal domino effect means it is simply a matter of time before there are more incidents of this nature," he adds.
"Moreover, when thermal runaway occurs with a big cell, a proportionately larger amount of energy is released and it is very difficult to prevent that energy from then heating up the neighboring cells and causing a domino effect that results in the entire pack catching fire," says Musk.
"They [Boeing] believe they have this under control, although I think there is aUnfortunately, the pack architecture supplied to Boeing is inherently unsafe," writes Musk in an email to Flightglobal.
"The fundamental safety issue with the architecture of a pack with large cells," writes Musk in an email. "It is much harder to maintain an even temperature in a large cell, as the distance from the center of the cell to the edge is much greater, which increases the risk of thermal runaway."