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The Death of Adulthood in American Culture

nytimes.com

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Re: The Death of Adulthood in American Culture

#21

Post by happyscrappy »

sebular wrote: post #16
happyscrappy wrote: post #9

This is pompous drivel. Instead of lamenting the reading habits of people that work hard and take care of their families maybe we should try to get everyone with children to be responsible parents. The author mistakes the hard won victories of modern society for some nondescript juvenilism.

Not only does it sound like you didn't read the article to the end, it sounds like you didn't even bother to skim past the first 1/3.

Updike dealt with infidelity and so did Don Draper. The author contradicts his thesis in the last paragraph. Did you have a point, he didn't.

Re: The Death of Adulthood in American Culture

#22

Post by xnull »

bkeroack wrote: post #6

I would not expect the average HN reader (foosball-playing, video gamer, etc) to agree with this. Sometimes I think tech is the epicenter of the "permanent adolescence" phenomena.

Given that the tech sector celebrates having fireman poles instead of stairs, colored ball pits, giant bean bags for chairs and webcomics as regular features in slideshows and the revealing contents of 'intership swag' posted to reddit from various tech companies (NERF guns, USB turrets, etc) - I would tend to agree.

Beyond that, the tech sector is made up of exactly the sort of Louie character described in the article. Mostly pale pasty males that feel obligated to sex with women more attractive than them. Boyish-men that try to out-novelty one other and whose boyish hobby (computers) just happens to be something that makes a _lot of money_ - it's like if we discovered that LEGO construction somehow helped corporate bottom lines. A culture that buys into the myth that computer pioneers,serious and careful mathematicians and technicians all, were 'geniuses' rather than driven and hard workers and that they, by knowing how to code in Python and Angular, are somehow too in that rank of elite men.

The tech industry celebrates adolescence and arrested development. It claims with a straight face it has engineers and is doing engineering, but just look at the difference in ethical standards and responsibility Software Engineering has compared to, say, Civil Engineering or Architecture. Software Engineers have no licensure. If your software kills someone (Therac-25, Great Northeast Blackout) or causes widespread instability (Black Monday, Flash Crash) or has ethically questionable goals, where are the repercussions? As a tech industry member you are shielded from your own ignorance, laziness, and carelessness. (Sure we build software faster. We could build bridges faster without licensure and regulations as well).

Re: The Death of Adulthood in American Culture

#23

Post by DanielBMarkham »

Reading this was like watching a kid make a snowman on top of a mountain, then the snowman fell off the mountain and created a landslide that destroyed the nearby town. The consequences and grand implications seem a bit far-ranging for the central premise.

Kids buy movies. You get the teenagers and young 20-somethings doing your thing, whatever your thing is? They'll drag the rest of society along with them.

Enough with the comic book movies already. I think after 50 or so we should have exhausted the genre for a while.

I think the key question is whether or not eventually people, including teenagers, wise up to this nonsense. Do you really want to be consuming the same old regurgitated boy-who-thinks-he-has-nothing-is-actually-a-great-wizard storyline that grandpa did? At some point, I would think, this edifice has to collapse under its own weight.

Re: The Death of Adulthood in American Culture

#24

Post by seanflyon »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #23

Reading this was like watching a kid make a snowman on top of a mountain, then the snowman fell off the mountain and created a landslide that destroyed the nearby town. The consequences and grand implications seem a bit far-ranging for the central premise. Kids buy movies. You get the teenagers and young 20-somethings doing your thing, whatever your thing is? They'll drag the rest of society along with them. Enough w…

> the same old regurgitated boy-who-thinks-he-has-nothing-is-actually-a-great-wizard storyline

How many comic book movies actually follow this formula? surely not most of them.

Re: The Death of Adulthood in American Culture

#25

Post by cafard »

xnull wrote: post #22
bkeroack wrote: post #6

I would not expect the average HN reader (foosball-playing, video gamer, etc) to agree with this. Sometimes I think tech is the epicenter of the "permanent adolescence" phenomena.

Given that the tech sector celebrates having fireman poles instead of stairs, colored ball pits, giant bean bags for chairs and webcomics as regular features in slideshows and the revealing contents of 'intership swag' posted to reddit from various tech companies (NERF guns, USB turrets, etc) - I would tend to agree. Beyond that, the tech sector is made up of exactly the sort of Louie character described in the artic…

Cullen Murphy and one other writer from The Atlantic wrote a book (unless it was just an article) about the notion of "neoteny", the preservation of juvenile characteristics into a mature age. They noted that among North American wildlife the tendency increased as the animals were further from their (presumed) original range. The biologists argued that the younger traits added to the adaptability of the animals and enabled them to thrive in conditions different from those of their ancestors. You could make an argument for the uses of neoteny in the software business.

(I once amused an (extremely grown-up) immigrant acquaintance by proposing this as the explanation for the immaturity he saw in Californians, suggesting that the Eastern US was the home range of the American. But of course he saw Americans as generally immature.)

I do not blame anyone for enjoying it when his chosen work makes him a lot of money. I do not blame any man for aspiring to attract women better looking than he is. (And I think you mean "entitled", in which case, No, nobody's entitled.) But yes, a little consciousness of what it's about wouldn't hurt a bit.

Re: The Death of Adulthood in American Culture

#26

Post by xnull »

cafard wrote: post #25
xnull wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the tech sector celebrates having fireman poles instead of stairs, colored ball pits, giant bean bags for chairs and webcomics as regular features in slideshows and the revealing contents of 'intership swag' posted to reddit from various tech companies (NERF guns, USB turrets, etc) - I would tend to agree. Beyond that, the tech sector is made up of exactly the sort of Louie character described in the artic…

Cullen Murphy and one other writer from The Atlantic wrote a book (unless it was just an article) about the notion of "neoteny", the preservation of juvenile characteristics into a mature age. They noted that among North American wildlife the tendency increased as the animals were further from their (presumed) original range. The biologists argued that the younger traits added to the adaptability of the animals and e…

I've encountered a number of articles and podcasts that extend the thesis that the process of domestication produces neoteny - that dogs are what wolf puppies would be if they never attained adult wolfhood. Many left the reader/listener with the idea that perhaps humanity had domesticated itself; purposefully weeded out those who become aggressive and self-involved and less trusting (by prison, execution, exile, cultural norms of fitting partners for reproduction) and made conditions more favorable for those who remain childish and collaborative longer. Hardly reproducible, but fun to think about.

Re: The Death of Adulthood in American Culture

#27

Post by CamperBob2 »

AngrySkillzz wrote: post #11

I'm pretty sure adulthood has always just been a bunch of people pretending that they know what they're doing, and being able to convince everyone else (peers, children) of it as well.

That might not make you a "man," but it will at least get you a job at the New York Times.

Re: The Death of Adulthood in American Culture

#29

Post by dneronique »

kevinmchugh wrote: post #14
ojbyrne wrote: post #2

"Noting that nearly a third of Y.A. books were purchased by readers ages 30 to 44 (most of them presumably without teenage children of their own), Graham insisted that such grown-ups “should feel embarrassed about reading literature for children.”" When I was a kid adults read lots of books that were very pulpy, low-brow, "genre" kinds of books - mysteries, westerns, etc. I don't see how Y.A. books are in any way a s…

What kind of challenges do the characters face? In the YA I remember, characters were struggling to define themselves while figuring out social standing, who their friends were, how to interact with their parents and managing their obligations(typically schoolwork). Those struggles could be abstracted by adding in genre challenges, but were still recognizable, and that was the appeal. I don't know a ton about pulp ge…

As an adult who reads a large variety of fiction and non-fiction alike within varying degrees of quality, I find myself enjoying the occasional YA book because they're often such shameless, reductionist broth that you're entirely freed from taking it too seriously and just take it at face value. Whether the protagonist is 10, 18, 25 or 40 is somewhat insignificant for me. Anyone of any age will deal with "struggling to define themselves while figuring out social standing, who their friends were, how to interact with their parents and managing their obligations."

At the end of the day, I'm just glad people are still reading.

Re: The Death of Adulthood in American Culture

#30

Post by seanflyon »

seanflyon wrote: post #24
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #23

Reading this was like watching a kid make a snowman on top of a mountain, then the snowman fell off the mountain and created a landslide that destroyed the nearby town. The consequences and grand implications seem a bit far-ranging for the central premise. Kids buy movies. You get the teenagers and young 20-somethings doing your thing, whatever your thing is? They'll drag the rest of society along with them. Enough w…

> the same old regurgitated boy-who-thinks-he-has-nothing-is-actually-a-great-wizard storyline How many comic book movies actually follow this formula? surely not most of them.

Try to actually think about it. What movies fit that formula?

Iron man - no, an arrogant man built his own powers Thor - no, an entitled boy temporarily had to cope with the absence of his powers to earn them back The Hulk - no, he is not a great wizard, he is trying to cure himself Captain America - you could make an argument for it, but no, he auditioned for his powers Batman - no Guardians of the Galaxy - no Spider-man - OK, especially in "The Amazing Spider-man" they played the destiny card Superman - sort-of, but he grew up with his powers Green Lantern - yes Daredevil - sort-of, but his wizards power is "not actually blind" X-men - sort of, but their powers are a civil rights race analogy

Most comic book movies do not fit the boy-who-thinks-he-has-nothing-is-actually-a-great-wizard formula and those that do tend to be less successful.

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