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Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

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Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#61

Post by lutusp »

baddox wrote: post #60
tormeh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A brainscan for psychopathy would be a first step. Honestly, I would outsource that to psychologists.

As far as I know, there is no "brainscan for psycopathy." Moreover, I don't think the field of psychology has a very strong record regarding the diagnosis and treatment of prisoners.

> Moreover, I don't think the field of psychology has a very strong record regarding the diagnosis and treatment of prisoners.

Or anyone else, for that matter. Tom Widiger, who served as head of research for DSM-IV, says "There are lots of studies which show that clinicians diagnose most of their patients with one particular disorder and really don't systematically assess for other disorders. They have a bias in reference to the disorder that they are especially interested in treating and believe that most of their patients have."

The reason should be obvious -- unlike medicine, psychological diagnoses rely on assessing symptoms, not the detection and treatment of causes.

Psychiatrists and psychologists who serve on parole boards have a record no better than chance. When they say that a person is no longer a threat and merits release, based on their accuracy and predictive track record, they might as well flip a coin.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#62

Post by Karunamon »

eurleif wrote: post #57
pessimizer wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Seriously?" is not an argument. Neither is 'oh, please' or 'you must be really stupid to believe that' (for future reference.) edit: If you feel the need to downvote this comment, pretend that it was "Whatever - communism wasn't so bad." and upvote it instead.

"Seriously?" was not my argument. My argument was that there have been far worse atrocities in communist countries than the problems described in the US. I didn't really think I needed to be specific, because it's common knowledge... but if you insist, here's your history lesson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_...

It does not necessarily follow that commnist/marxist ideology on its own was the cause of the atrocities. In fact, i'd say there's a good argument that they were ultimately caused by ignorant power-seekers misapplying the ideology for their own benefit.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#63

Post by broseph »

tormeh wrote: post #52
candu wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some people are just bastards and can't be helped. I'd say that's a difficult assertion to prove in a system that provides every incentive for recidivism. In addition, how would you (or anyone else) fairly evaluate who falls into this category?

A brainscan for psychopathy would be a first step. Honestly, I would outsource that to psychologists.

So basically your argument is that phrenology just wasn't advanced enough yet?

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#64

Post by eurleif »

Karunamon wrote: post #62
eurleif wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Seriously?" was not my argument. My argument was that there have been far worse atrocities in communist countries than the problems described in the US. I didn't really think I needed to be specific, because it's common knowledge... but if you insist, here's your history lesson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_...

It does not necessarily follow that commnist/marxist ideology on its own was the cause of the atrocities. In fact, i'd say there's a good argument that they were ultimately caused by ignorant power-seekers misapplying the ideology for their own benefit.

>It does not necessarily follow that commnist/marxist ideology on its own was the cause of the atrocities.

Nor does it necessarily follow that capitalism on its own is the cause of the problems in the US that were being compared to communist atrocities.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#65

Post by [deleted] »

pessimizer wrote: post #48
cousin_it wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not overcomplicate things. Marx believed in class struggle and had a favored side in that struggle. That's quite enough. If a government believes in class struggle and has a favored side, it's obvious that atrocities will follow. Same as with a government that believes in a master race.

Lets not simplify things to exactly the level of our own personal prejudices either. >Marx believed in class struggle and had a favored side in that struggle. That's quite enough. Enough for what? >If a government believes in class struggle and has a favored side, it's obvious that atrocities will follow. Because you said so?

[deleted]

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#66

Post by Retric »

eurleif wrote: post #47
Retric wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every government picks a side in the class struggle. Saudi America and the USA pick the rich to various degrees. Denmark chooses the lower middle class. Comparing the two it seems like choosing the rich causes far more atrocities their just less visible. Unemployed to long, well sorry we no longer count you. Had your stuff stolen at a homeless shelter well sorry we don't count you. Got picked up for being in the wron…

> Comparing the two it seems like choosing the rich causes far more atrocities their just less visible. > US examples: Unemployed to long, well sorry we no longer count you. Had your stuff stolen at a homeless shelter well sorry we don't count you. Spending a year in prison awaiting trial, sorry your right to a speedy trial ends well before your actual trial. These are your examples of atrocities which are supposed t…

Note, I specifically chose two liberal, wealthy, and modern governments and your counter argument relies on several countries that where both poor and for the most part no longer exist. If you want to compare the darker parts of history then let's look at the genocide of the American Indian, hundreds of years of brutal slavery, frequent overthrow of governments in south America and the middle east, use of biological, chemical and nuclear warfare, firebombing civilian populations, etc etc. However, as most of that took place in a vastly different economic and cultural environment it's irrelevant.

But more to the point. This was an attempt to follow just one person as they fall though the cracks not highlights of the worst things America has ever done. We systematically destroy people's lives in ways that will get ignored by history simply because there are no mass graves.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#67

Post by joesmo »

jsdalton wrote: post #14

Perhaps surprisingly -- or perhaps not -- a strong plurality of Americans actually think prison life is "too easy": https://today.yougov.com/news/2014/07/21/many-americans-thin...

It's never surprising that the vast majority is wrong. The majority is always wrong by definition. I doubt anyone who has been to prison, even for a tour, thinks it's "too easy."

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#68

Post by joesmo »

netcan wrote: post #29

This is a part of my perspective as a European: The prevailing system of government in the world at present is a mix of socialism, capitalism, welfarism and the philosophically unchampioned realpolitik practices that were picked up and spread over the years. In any case, Europe has a philosophical heritage of socialism. It's different flavors at different times in different places. There is also conservatism, capital…

It's not just about class here in America, but also about racism. A poor black or Latino person is "way below" in treatment by society than a white person of similar economic means, though they might be in the same economic "class". They're unlikely to mingle and thus form reform movements either. Politicians like it this way and even the few that may not take advantage of these racial divisions to push policies that hurt the poor in general and the non-white in particular. While the US could certainly fare better with more socialist policies for public warfare, they are generally not enacted because politicians and their constituents absolutely hate to see help going to non-whites. Things haven't changed that much in the last half-century.

Also, expecting Americans to read or admit they're wrong or uninformed, while a noble idea, is an idealistic idea that ignores the basic facts that most Americans don't read, prefer ignorance, and hate to admit they're wrong even when provided with incontrovertible evidence.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#69

Post by kazagistar »

jessaustin wrote: post #30
kazagistar wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem presented is very real, but the proposed "solution" is absurd. There are plenty of way functional prison systems. As long as we stop dehumanizing felons and normalizing crimes against them, I see no reason why reform is impossible.

Reasonable prison systems incarcerate much smaller percentages of their populations than the USA one does. Any reform worth contemplating will result in the release of many prisoners, and the closure of prisons in all but the most overcrowded states.

Agreed. But the reform proposed in the article stated unconditional "abolishment" as the goal. That is crazy.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#70

Post by Fuzzwah »

joesmo wrote: post #67
jsdalton wrote: post #14

Perhaps surprisingly -- or perhaps not -- a strong plurality of Americans actually think prison life is "too easy": https://today.yougov.com/news/2014/07/21/many-americans-thin...

It's never surprising that the vast majority is wrong. The majority is always wrong by definition. I doubt anyone who has been to prison, even for a tour, thinks it's "too easy."

> The majority is always wrong by definition

Care to explain the thinking behind that logic?

I can't seem to get my head anywhere near understanding how you can state this.

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