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No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

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Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#121

Post by frou_dh »

bitJericho wrote: post #102
lincolnq wrote: post #2

The state of nutrition science is pathetic. The science is conflicted over a simple question of fact -- whether or not a trivially measurable short-term effect occurs when you eat one of the most common food additives in the world. If we can't even answer THIS -- it seems like it should be incredibly easy to answer -- I don't see why people can claim anything at all about diets and macronutrients. Nutrition science n…

We know a lot about nutrition and healthy eating. You shouldn't believe everything you hear. Go talk to a dietician.

Bring a trailer for the Heart Healthy Whole Grains®

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#122

Post by base698 »

crusso wrote: post #114

Sadly, the unsettled or contradicted nature of the science won't stop politicians like Bloomberg from trying to force the behavior he wants through legislation.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/09/the_nanny_state_didnt...

The vast majority of the people complaining about the Big Soda ban don't buy big sodas, and those most enraged about the Buckyballs ban either already have them or would never want them. So the reaction has nothing to do with the products themselves, the rage is on a theoretical level, "I don't want government intruding in my private choices." But they already do this in a gazillion different ways, bigger, more important intrusions. The difference is that those are invisible. You know you can't value the risks in airplane safety or radiation leaks so you trust them to do it, but you think you can value the risks of a soda and hate that they try to do it for you.

I know you are thinking, "but I can resist soda; I understand the risks"-- never mind you don't even know the ingredients of soda, the point here is you are starting from you and multiplying by 6 billion.

When you say, "personal responsibility!" you are really saying "this is safe enough for it to be a question of personal responsibility." But you must ask yourself the question: how do you know Buckyballs and soda are safe enough for them to be about personal responsibility? Because "some other omnipotent entity" allowed them to exist. How do you know that Entity can be trusted? Because it even tries to ban silly things like Buckyballs and soda. The system is sound.

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#123

Post by nickbauman »

In recent years oncology is seeing there might be a connection between lack of iodine and increase risk of cancer. So when people curb their salt intake for long periods of time they may be risking cancer since it is one of the only ways inlanders get enough of it.

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#124

Post by laichzeit0 »

coldpie wrote: post #107
laichzeit0 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in effect what you're arguing is that because something was tested in isolation, you feel justified in generalizing it to a situation it was not tested in.

Absent further evidence, that seems like a safe conclusion given the caveat that it hasn't actually been tested.

Hold on a second. It's not that there is no evidence, I just personally haven't bothered to crawl the internet looking for it. A quick google search found the following: "High- and moderate-GI choices may be improved by pairing them with low-GI foods or healthy sources of lean protein or unsaturated fats. For example, the GI of white bread will be lowered if it is eaten with a bowl of chili or spread with peanut butter." I.e. eat your white rice with some chicken and olive oil and you'll be "okay".

http://clinical.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/4/155.full

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#125

Post by sergiosgc »

svsaraf wrote: post #50

I'm a medical student who actually read the paper this article refers to. I would be very careful trying to draw conclusions from a study like this. I don't think many people in the healthcare community would be very surprised by it. 1) All clinically treated hypertensive patients were excluded - that means if you have kidney or vascular disease (hypertension) and are being treated for it, you aren't counted here. Do…

1) In trying to find out if, generically, there is a causal effect between salt intake and blood pressure, it is sensible to select a healthy population. The hypothesis being tested is "In good working condition, the human body maintains correct NaCl levels". You do not want to test people with faulty metabolism, because they are outside the scope.

2) See explanation in number 1.

3) I have not read the original paper, but the news article makes no mention of such inference.

I have to say that I think the premise that the human body must be excellent at maintaining NaCl levels perfect is sound. Sodium and chlorine are very active chemical elements. Having them in wrong levels probably throws every chemical reaction in the body out of whack. If I were to design a chemical machine that used NaCl, keeping the correct level would be a primary control. Evolution tends to get these things right, so our bodies probably do have excellent control mechanisms for this balance.

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#126

Post by vanderZwan »

sergiosgc wrote: post #125
svsaraf wrote: post #50

I'm a medical student who actually read the paper this article refers to. I would be very careful trying to draw conclusions from a study like this. I don't think many people in the healthcare community would be very surprised by it. 1) All clinically treated hypertensive patients were excluded - that means if you have kidney or vascular disease (hypertension) and are being treated for it, you aren't counted here. Do…

1) In trying to find out if, generically, there is a causal effect between salt intake and blood pressure, it is sensible to select a healthy population. The hypothesis being tested is "In good working condition, the human body maintains correct NaCl levels". You do not want to test people with faulty metabolism, because they are outside the scope. 2) See explanation in number 1. 3) I have not read the original paper…

> In trying to find out if, generically, there is a causal effect between salt intake and blood pressure, it is sensible to select a healthy population.

That only holds if the causal relationship does not affect health in any other way.

> The hypothesis being tested is "In good working condition, the human body maintains correct NaCl levels".

Maybe I'm misinterpreting things, but isn't maintaining correct NaCl levels is by definition part of a good working condition? Sounds a bit circular.

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#127

Post by crusso »

base698 wrote: post #122
crusso wrote: post #114

Sadly, the unsettled or contradicted nature of the science won't stop politicians like Bloomberg from trying to force the behavior he wants through legislation.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/09/the_nanny_state_didnt... The vast majority of the people complaining about the Big Soda ban don't buy big sodas, and those most enraged about the Buckyballs ban either already have them or would never want them. So the reaction has nothing to do with the products themselves, the rage is on a theoretical level, "I don't want government intruding in my private choices." But they a…

vast majority of the people complaining about the Big Soda ban don't buy big sodas

Isn't that a bit like saying that only African Americans are allowed to stand up to racism?

the rage is on a theoretical level

If individual liberty and personal responsibilities are only theories. I don't happen to agree.

But they already do this in a gazillion different ways

So because they get away with it in harder-to-grasp and harder-to-politically-oppose ways, we should just submit to all of it?

I know you are thinking, "but I can resist soda; I understand the risks"

You obviously have no idea what I'm thinking. I think about the bigger picture of a society of sheep that elects wolves to make all their decisions for them because the sheep are too busy watching the NFL and Miley Cyrus to be bothered to make decisions for themselves and take responsibility for those decisions. I ponder the paradox of a populace too stupid to decide whether or not to drink a soda but smart enough to elect angels who will protect them from themselves.

Because "some other omnipotent entity" allowed them to exist

You're totally and completely wrong yet again. I'm an atheist. How does that affect your rationalization of letting others use force to make the smallest decisions in life for you?

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#128

Post by bitJericho »

leephillips wrote: post #118
Padding wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely curious. Is there any evidence that dieticians are more than just cargo-cultists? Talking to them usually results in "more of this and less of that and exercise and being thorough and blah blah blah". That sounds a lot like "I have no real idea of what's going on, but something in this broad spectrum of measures is bound to eventually pay off". That's very different from an answer that one would expect…

Dieticians are not health professionals in the sense that doctors, RNs, or physician assistants are. The typical state requirement to be a dietician is a single multiple-choice test with some basic questions about health and nutrition. You might not even need a college degree.

I didn't mean walk into Dietician's-R-Us and start believing every word they're saying. My point is that we are very knowledgable about what needs to be done to stay healthy, go talk to someone who knows, and don't go to your local herbel remedies and dieting fad store expecting anything but mock confusion towards the scientific research.

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#129

Post by throwaway5752 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #104
dreamfactory2 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have read that only a percentage of the population are sensitive to salt and that has been extrapolated to the whole population because a) it's quite hard/expensive to test, and b) you can theoretically still achieve reductions in average disease and mortality by limiting everybody's intake. If that's true it's somewhat like making everybody wear glasses, whilst understating the risks to the folks who are actually…

But its simple to measure! Take your blood pressure; eat a lot of salty stuff; take your blood pressure. This is how I learned that caffeine raises my blood pressure about 20 pts. One can of coke. Sigh. And every doctor I have says "oh that's not true, you'd have to drink like 35 cups of coffee". And I'd like to tell them "The more you talk, the less I respect your opinion". Off topic, but what is it about experts th…

You have to realize that either 1) you've made a measuring error or 2) you are the exception to the hundreds of hypochondriac/self-diagnosing/internet expert patients they see on a regular basis that are sure that they have the marburg virus.

Re: No Association Between Salt And Blood Pressure, Study Finds

#130

Post by smeyer »

sergiosgc wrote: post #125
svsaraf wrote: post #50

I'm a medical student who actually read the paper this article refers to. I would be very careful trying to draw conclusions from a study like this. I don't think many people in the healthcare community would be very surprised by it. 1) All clinically treated hypertensive patients were excluded - that means if you have kidney or vascular disease (hypertension) and are being treated for it, you aren't counted here. Do…

1) In trying to find out if, generically, there is a causal effect between salt intake and blood pressure, it is sensible to select a healthy population. The hypothesis being tested is "In good working condition, the human body maintains correct NaCl levels". You do not want to test people with faulty metabolism, because they are outside the scope. 2) See explanation in number 1. 3) I have not read the original paper…

>Sodium and chlorine are very active chemical elements

How active are the sodium and chlorine ions, which I assume is what you actually get since the salt is dissolved. Do they still have a major effect on most of the chemical reactions in the body? It's not like anyone is ingesting sodium metal.

Disclaimer: I have a physics degree but haven't taken chemistry or biology past high school, so I'm very ignorant here.

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