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Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

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Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#31

Post by jessaustin »

jqm wrote: post #18

The article had me until about 3/4 of the way through. (still a good article). We can't, and we won't, abolish the prison system in the foreseeable future. What we can and what we should do is enact some drastic reforms of our criminal justice system. The old guard needs to be removed from it's duties almost to the man. The CJ system in the US has become an expensive, shameful joke and without a doubt, causes far mor…

Even if one finds the conclusions extreme, they can be valuable if they're extreme in the right direction. We have to move the Overton window somehow.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#32

Post by JoeAltmaier »

angersock wrote: post #8
clay_to_n wrote: post #3

Wow, very powerful article. I agree that our prison system is America's biggest moral wrong, and I hope that history books in 50 years write about how sad and unjust it is in our time. That said, does anyone know what proposed solutions are? When the author talks of abolishing the prison system in exchange for higher crime rates (and potentially even more deaths by the state), does he literally mean we should close a…

The only way to get this fixed (peacefully) is to raise a ruckus and get the public to fight their elected officials into Doing the Right Thing. You can bet your ass that the number of dollars able to be rallied for this purpose is dwarfed by the incumbent interests. Further, it's trivial to say "Do you want to have your kid growing up next to an evil ~=felon=~?" and sway votes, because people are not rational above…

Problem is, prisons like all government institutions are controlled by fads and fears and money - Senators don't do anything until votes are at stake or campaigning dollars. So nothing happens for a long time, and then Bang some extreme measure is passed to show that they care or something.

We closed the mental institutions and released folks into the general population, and that didn't work very well. Closing the prisons would be worse, because some of the people in there actually mean to do us harm.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#33

Post by m0nty »

Excellent article until we get to this:

"[T]he first question any prison abolitionist needs to answer is what we’re supposed to do with violent criminals. An important part of that answer has to be that we must simply put up with an increased level of risk in our daily lives."

Good luck selling that idea. It drifts off-topic in any case, since up until then the article is mainly about prison reform and (for the most part) non-violent offenders themselves becoming victims of violent inmates. But wholesale release of violent offenders back into the community? It won't happen, and no politician who hopes to get elected will touch that message with a 10-foot pole.

Reading on:

"Prison abolitionists should be ready to advocate a massive expansion of the death penalty if that’s what it takes to move the discussion forward"

So now you're determined to alienate people on both the left and the right, on the dubious notion that violent offenders should be released, but the most violent should be executed?

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#34

Post by alexhawdon »

lallysingh wrote: post #11
jtheory wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supporting your first suggestion -- what are the best ways to improve education opportunities for prisoners?

Put education in the prison? Maybe attach good grades to earlier release?

This seems like such an obvious solution and, with the advent of things like MOOCs, something that needn't be particularly costly. (Setting aside the fact that even 'costly' but effective rehabilitation is demonstrably cheaper in the long-run.)

As well as the obvious benefits of equipping offenders with skills that will make them more employable upon release it seems intuitively true that the struggle for self-improvement would make them all-round 'better people'. For those who argue that self-study isn't enough, another component could be pairing up inmates of differing attainment levels and having effectively having them teach one another -- again, the act of teaching and helping a stranger has got to be a positive experience.

Is there a big problem with any of this? Have studies been conducted that indicate my intuitions are incorrect? Have I massively underestimated the difficulties and costs associated with such a scheme? ...Or is it simply a combination of lack of imagination on the side of the administration, coupled with a strong urge for punitive justice on the side of the electorate?

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#35

Post by Ntrails »

jessaustin wrote: post #30
kazagistar wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem presented is very real, but the proposed "solution" is absurd. There are plenty of way functional prison systems. As long as we stop dehumanizing felons and normalizing crimes against them, I see no reason why reform is impossible.

Reasonable prison systems incarcerate much smaller percentages of their populations than the USA one does. Any reform worth contemplating will result in the release of many prisoners, and the closure of prisons in all but the most overcrowded states.

Already in the Prison Treatment Act of 1945, the view was expressed that the deprivation of freedom itself should be regarded as the penal element of a prison sentence and not the actual prison experience itself. Thus, the PTA of 1974 states explicitly that an inmate shall be treated with respect for his or her human dignity. [1]

As ever when I look for an country that I think will be an example of doing something well, I start with the nordics. And I see that Sweden has recently closed 4 prisons because they don't have enough prisoners to fill them any more. [2]

I would love to hear counter points if my cursory reading has missed something - but in general I was once again impressed by the attitudes I see there.

[1] http://www.internationalpenalandpenitentiaryfoundation.org/S... [2]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/11/sweden-closes-p...

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#36

Post by cousin_it »

netcan wrote: post #29

This is a part of my perspective as a European: The prevailing system of government in the world at present is a mix of socialism, capitalism, welfarism and the philosophically unchampioned realpolitik practices that were picked up and spread over the years. In any case, Europe has a philosophical heritage of socialism. It's different flavors at different times in different places. There is also conservatism, capital…

Don't attribute the gentleness of European customs to Marxism. Explicitly Marxist countries had the highest incarceration rates in history, because incarceration was used for class warfare with no pretense of "punishing" people for "crimes". I grew up in one of those countries, and I want to weep every time I see a Westerner advising someone to read Marx and Trotsky.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#37

Post by reitanqild »

Ntrails wrote: post #35
jessaustin wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reasonable prison systems incarcerate much smaller percentages of their populations than the USA one does. Any reform worth contemplating will result in the release of many prisoners, and the closure of prisons in all but the most overcrowded states.

Already in the Prison Treatment Act of 1945, the view was expressed that the deprivation of freedom itself should be regarded as the penal element of a prison sentence and not the actual prison experience itself. Thus, the PTA of 1974 states explicitly that an inmate shall be treated with respect for his or her human dignity. [1] As ever when I look for an country that I think will be an example of doing something we…

Counterpoint: the Norwegian government is considering hiring capacity in the Netherlands for 700 long term prisoners. Sweden is said to have considered hiring capacity as well but decided against because of the legal minefield surrounding this topic.

(Edit: Since this is possibly controversial, here are a few Norwegian sources: https://www.google.com/search?q=soning+i+Nederland )

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#38

Post by dragonwriter »

cousin_it wrote: post #26

Why not make prison more humane instead of abolishing it? Prosecute crimes against inmates, allow independent observers inside, etc. That would also take a lot of political courage, though.

> Prosecute crimes against inmates

That's already the official policy.

So how do you make it real?

Short of removing the executive branch's monopoly on criminal prosecution, I don't see how it can be done, and there's all kinds of problems doing that (for one thing, unless you also abandon protections against double jeopardy, you invite sham prosecutions to protect the guilty.)

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#39

Post by dragonwriter »

cousin_it wrote: post #36
netcan wrote: post #29

This is a part of my perspective as a European: The prevailing system of government in the world at present is a mix of socialism, capitalism, welfarism and the philosophically unchampioned realpolitik practices that were picked up and spread over the years. In any case, Europe has a philosophical heritage of socialism. It's different flavors at different times in different places. There is also conservatism, capital…

Don't attribute the gentleness of European customs to Marxism. Explicitly Marxist countries had the highest incarceration rates in history, because incarceration was used for class warfare with no pretense of "punishing" people for "crimes". I grew up in one of those countries, and I want to weep every time I see a Westerner advising someone to read Marx and Trotsky.

Marxism had a broad impact beyond "explicitly Marxist countries", and all of the latter were actually explicitly Leninist, which, despite claiming continuity with Marx, rejected core elements of Marx's theory of the necessary conditions for socialism and substituted them with top-down paternalistic vanguardism. (This was a general theme, even before Lenin, in Russian "Marxism" -- and certainly includes Trotsky, though.)

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#40

Post by api_or_ipa »

m0nty wrote: post #33

Excellent article until we get to this: "[T]he first question any prison abolitionist needs to answer is what we’re supposed to do with violent criminals. An important part of that answer has to be that we must simply put up with an increased level of risk in our daily lives." Good luck selling that idea. It drifts off-topic in any case, since up until then the article is mainly about prison reform and (for the most…

If you put aside political left and rights, then the arguments seem to be a bit more justifiable. At least, the author isn't sticking to party talking points and making new arguments.

I think what the author is saying is that prisons are, by them selves, a bad way to encourage reasonably low and sustainable crime rates. Wherever possible, criminals should be "punished" by out-of-prison solutions and rehabilitation. The author is pushing the point of executing everyone as an almost rhetorical argument. If you want to imprison so many people, why not simply kill them?

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