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Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

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Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#21

Wow, very powerful article. I agree that our prison system is America's biggest moral wrong, and I hope that history books in 50 years write about how sad and unjust it is in our time. That said, does anyone know what proposed solutions are? When the author talks of abolishing the prison system in exchange for higher crime rates (and potentially even more deaths by the state), does he literally mean we should close a…

The problem presented is very real, but the proposed "solution" is absurd. There are plenty of way functional prison systems. As long as we stop dehumanizing felons and normalizing crimes against them, I see no reason why reform is impossible.

[deleted]

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#22
One of the things i think is missed in the proposed solution (do away with prisons) is the problem of mob violence in general, and "mob justice" in particular.

If people don't believe the government will punish people for crimes, they will do it themselves. Would that result in less hyper-hell?

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#23
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you sit on a jury, don't vote to convict on drug "crimes" or other prison-stuffing non-violent offences short of fraud and larceny on an epic scale.

I feel that the core argument of the article is that we cannot fix the problem through non-violent inmates. There are not enough of them. The biggest problem is with violent inmates who none of us really want back out in society; the problem is that the damage caused by imprisoning them is so much larger than the improvement experienced by everyone else.

> the problem is that the damage caused by imprisoning them is so much larger than the improvement experienced by everyone else.

Is it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the US prison population just 0.00730843528654% of our country's total population? 0.99269156471346% of the US population experiencing lower violent crime is a larger improvement than the crimes suffered in prison. Wouldn't it be more effective if we just decriminalized drug possession and just ended the drug war entirely?

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel that the core argument of the article is that we cannot fix the problem through non-violent inmates. There are not enough of them. The biggest problem is with violent inmates who none of us really want back out in society; the problem is that the damage caused by imprisoning them is so much larger than the improvement experienced by everyone else.

> the problem is that the damage caused by imprisoning them is so much larger than the improvement experienced by everyone else. Is it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the US prison population just 0.00730843528654% of our country's total population? 0.99269156471346% of the US population experiencing lower violent crime is a larger improvement than the crimes suffered in prison. Wouldn't it be more effective if w…

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the US prison population just 0.00730843528654% of our country's total population?

Citation needed. In fact, the figure is 0.94% in jail, and 2.9% in one or more of jail/probation/parole:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_Sta...

Quote: "According to the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), 2,266,800 adults were incarcerated in U.S. federal and state prisons, and county jails at year-end 2011 – about 0.94% of adults in the U.S. resident population.[4] Additionally, 4,814,200 adults at year-end 2011 were on probation or on parole.[8] In total, 6,977,700 adults were under correctional supervision (probation, parole, jail, or prison) in 2011 – about 2.9% of adults in the U.S. resident population."

This means your provided figure is (a) wildly exaggerated as to its accuracy, using far more digits than its source can justify, and (b) flat wrong to an astonishing degree.

> Wouldn't it be more effective if we just decriminalized drug possession and just ended the drug war entirely?

Absolutely, many agree including me. But your figures are still wrong.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#25
post #6

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb... This also links to other resources on the subject, and discusses some of the startling stats in the OP (like that in the US more men are raped than women, because of prison rape).

After reading these two articles, I can't help but wonder if the depiction of prison life in US, as seen in Oz [0], wasn't that far from truth.

I still would want to get some background (and financial interests) on the author. The build-up of the article culminates the third chapter from the end:

Abolishing prisons and releasing all the prisoners would amount to a deregulation of criminal punishment. It would mean letting the private sector determine how best to prevent ourselves from getting robbed. In high finance, the laissez-faire approach has proved to be a disaster; for petty crime, it would be a boon.

So, the antidote to the proposed solution will be more gated communities and private police forces guarding these sanctuaries? Considering that the article avoided pointing at the financial incentives of the prison industrial complex system, I can't shake a feeling there are some other financial interests behind this article.

[0]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118421/

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#27

Why not make prison more humane instead of abolishing it? Prosecute crimes against inmates, allow independent observers inside, etc. That would also take a lot of political courage, though.

And in the "crimes against inmates" it has to be pointed out that many of them are committed by the jailers themselves. Those crimes need to be punished with severe penalties.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#28

Wow, very powerful article. I agree that our prison system is America's biggest moral wrong, and I hope that history books in 50 years write about how sad and unjust it is in our time. That said, does anyone know what proposed solutions are? When the author talks of abolishing the prison system in exchange for higher crime rates (and potentially even more deaths by the state), does he literally mean we should close a…

The max-security ones need to be kept. Some people are just bastards and can't be helped. Punishment has no effect on them - what we need is to lock them up for life. But that's maybe 5% or less of the prison population. Legalize drugs, and have a social security system that means no one has to steal and suddenly almost everyone else is out. The remainder need rehabilitation, which probably needs to happen in a prison.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#29
This is a part of my perspective as a European:

The prevailing system of government in the world at present is a mix of socialism, capitalism, welfarism and the philosophically unchampioned realpolitik practices that were picked up and spread over the years.

In any case, Europe has a philosophical heritage of socialism. It's different flavors at different times in different places. There is also conservatism, capitalist liberalism. All sorts. But socialism is not a bad word in Europe. It's not like flying a swastika. It's part of the political heritage of many parties & people of the political centre.

In any case, I think that socialism including Marx's own writings read in its 1840s political context contain valuable perspectives. That is, you can think of the world as a self organizing playground for heroic, creative individuals as Ayn Rand does. I dig that perspective. You can view the economy as a mechanical ecosystem as many "modern" economists do (including Milton Friedmanesque monetarism, Keynes, and to a lesser extent Austrian School). That's valuable perspective too too, though far less poetic and invigorating.

Back to socialism, it's an important part of our heritage. The history of political, moral and philosophical thought. At the heart of it is class. Class struggle. Class Consciousness. Just thinking about societal dynamics in terms of classes.

The majority of incarcerated Americans are members of certain classes where incarceration is common. Americans, with their allergic reactions to socialist language avoid this construct or paradigm. Instead they think of it as culture, or "socio-economics" a watered down Marxist paradigm without much of the richness.

Prisons, prison complexes and such have always been a class issue. Avoiding this perspective is avoiding the clearest historical perspective of the problem. The whole modern idea of prisons is not that old. People were not incarcerated for decades in the 1600s. Modern prisons, correctional institutions came into being with the industrial age to deal with the class instability of that period. The lowest classes (beneath the working class majority) were prone to crime, drunkenness and generally antisocial lifestyle.

Public sadism solutions (public executions and torture) gave way to forced labour Forced labour gave way to public prisons. These were enabled by Bigger Government (to use an americanism) and a vernal super-sizing of public institution. Along the way, exile (eg Australian & American prison colonies) was tried and some other solutions. But it was always and still is a way of dealing with the underclass problem. Those poor bastards who get the worst of any societal system from Feudalism to Capitalism to Nordic Social Democracy.

Whenever I see American underclass issues bubble to an overflowing boil, from my removed location I see class. I see people growing up in a sector of society with certain norms and expectations. Their part of the economy and the society is mostly defined by class. The encouragement of outliers breaking out of this fate is admirable, but it does not change the realities of class. As people, we continue societies that we are born into for the most part. We also break out and rebel and redefine paradigms. But, classes are sticky. People follow the paths laid out for them from birth.

TLDR: Americans, get over your socialism allergy. Read Marx & Trotsky. Read it in context. Pay attention to the parts about classes in society and their role in history. Discard the bad parts, but read it first before you determine which parts are good and which are bad.

Re: Raise the Crime Rate (2012)

#30

Wow, very powerful article. I agree that our prison system is America's biggest moral wrong, and I hope that history books in 50 years write about how sad and unjust it is in our time. That said, does anyone know what proposed solutions are? When the author talks of abolishing the prison system in exchange for higher crime rates (and potentially even more deaths by the state), does he literally mean we should close a…

The problem presented is very real, but the proposed "solution" is absurd. There are plenty of way functional prison systems. As long as we stop dehumanizing felons and normalizing crimes against them, I see no reason why reform is impossible.

Reasonable prison systems incarcerate much smaller percentages of their populations than the USA one does. Any reform worth contemplating will result in the release of many prisoners, and the closure of prisons in all but the most overcrowded states.
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