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The Next Generation Bends Over

37signals.com

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Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#41

Post by omgsean »

fnid wrote: post #35
fallentimes wrote: post #6

Please. $170 million is "fuck you" money. Aaron and I'm guessing many of the top founders/executives made enough money to never ever have to work again. Fake revolutions are cute and all, but think of how awesome it would be to never ever have to work for the man again. They can do anything they want...for profit, not for profit, TBD (Y Combinator). This wasn't some BS talent acquisition; this was an absolute shitloa…

FU money isn't only a big lump sum of cash. It can also be a residual flow of payments for SaaS or royalties or dividends. As long as that money is coming in every month, you're fine and can do most anything you want as well. Flipping a company is just one way to say FU to the man. I've said FU to the man lots of times, even when all I had was some cash I had saved up from working really hard and long hours at a sala…

"lots of homeless people break free all the time and many of them are way happier than those receiving big exits for startups. That is not hyperbole."

I'm sure you can find several homeless people who are happier than several people who made FU money in a short amount of time, but I'd be willing to bet that on average, people who started up a company and sold it for dump trucks full of cash are happier than homeless people.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#42

Post by old-gregg »

They were on their way to redefining an industry — one that was left for dead by the current custodians.

I have never seen Mint and haven't used Quicken in ages. But isn't Mint the same thing only hosted? Where exactly did they innovate, I haven't heard of any exciting features. Anything here besides just "onlineness"?

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#43

Post by baguasquirrel »

_cbsz wrote: post #16
jasonfried wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuck You money" is such a myth. More on this soon in another post.

Are you claiming that money does not have diminishing marginal utility? (i.e., the famous "s-curve"; it's in AIMA but I can't find a convenient picture with Google.)

If you're the usual person that economics tries to model, then yes, money has diminish marginal utility that drops off quickly. The value of money drops off for everyone. If you ask me, 170 million doesn't buy a whole lot of votes in Congress. But this is irrelevant.

What's valuable is the ability to create money, not the money itself. Investing is hard. You could probably ask pg about how hard it is. These guys had a really good investment, and these guys, bright as they are, may have very well killed their golden goose.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#44

Post by ivankirigin »

jasonfried wrote: post #11
iamelgringo wrote: post #7

Is it me, or is 37 signals being disingenuous. They rail against people who take VC money. At the same time they take money from an investment firm. They they say that their taking money was okay because they wanted the advice of the investor: http://37signals.com/svn/archives2/bezos_expeditions_invests... Other people taking money to get access to investor advice is bad and a disease. They rant against startups that…

We say don't take money up front. Money up front is the sin: You're entering into a financial arrangement when you have no leverage. It's the worst possible time to do business. Re: Eyeballs... Our problem with action for eyeballs is when you have nothing to sell the brains behind the eyeballs. Just building an audience with nothing to sell (beyond ads) is what we rail against. But building an audience that could als…

If you're against building something that monetizes with ads, then you're against most of the internet, a good chunk of publishing, and most of broadcasting.

The position doesn't seem too principled. Your condescending tone with "sell the brains behind the eyeballs" doesn't aid the argument.

I personally like selling stuff and services too. But I'm not railing* against other business models.

* pun intended

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#45

Post by zacker »

adw wrote: post #34
zacker wrote: post #19

Jason's point is broader than the business deal, he's making a critique of the Silicon Valley culture. While I have the utmost respect for the capabilities of the Mint team, I agree that it's disingenuous for the community to wrap itself in the flag of "We're in this for the revolution, not the money" and then be just so damn quick to take the money. That said, Mint seems like the exception out here. Facebook and Twi…

What community? Okay, I'm not in the Valley, but businesses are in business to do business - to make money for their shareholders. Arguing against that as a reasonable motivation is disingenuous. You can disagree with the business decision; that essentially amounts to "I think their expected value is >$170m and I'd take their risk profile". Fair enough. But if you're arguing it on any other basis than that, then you'…

Do you use Intuit software? Have you tried Mint? Everyone I've talked to that has a Mint account and has been forced to use Intuit software in the past is uniformly dismayed and confused by this acquisition.

Banker math surely proves Aaron would have to show real hubris to ignore Intuit's offer, but founders rightly run startups, not bankers. Intuit is a $9B twenty five year old company. Mint could have given them a run for their money. They took the payday instead.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#46

Post by zackattack »

jasonfried wrote: post #28
kyro wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often times, companies have no choice but to raise money up front. Tesla and Facebook had to, and both seem to be well on their way to changing the way we behave environmentally and socially. Also, I really really really do not understand all the crap you guys give ad based websites/business models. Advert business has well and long been an established industry, dripping with cash. There are tons of websites out ther…

"Tesla and Facebook had to" Tesla makes physical products. They manufacture. They have inventory. They have a factory. Money is required because they have significant initial capital expenses. I take issue with "Facebook had to". Facebook chose to, they didn't have to. Software companies don't have to. They choose to.

Facebook had to take money because they have server costs; Facebook has server costs because they are the largest photo webapp. But sure, you make a point. Facebook should have instead stayed small. Charged its customers money. Had a popular internet blog. Facebook should've built something people love.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#47

Post by zackattack »

omgsean wrote: post #39
kyro wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often times, companies have no choice but to raise money up front. Tesla and Facebook had to, and both seem to be well on their way to changing the way we behave environmentally and socially. Also, I really really really do not understand all the crap you guys give ad based websites/business models. Advert business has well and long been an established industry, dripping with cash. There are tons of websites out ther…

>Facebook had to Facebook was started in some kid's dorm room, and I'm still not entirely clear on what they're selling.

Facebook sells highly targeted ad inventory. They may become the most effective advertising platform on the planet.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#48

Post by zackattack »

jasonfried wrote: post #14
fallentimes wrote: post #6

Please. $170 million is "fuck you" money. Aaron and I'm guessing many of the top founders/executives made enough money to never ever have to work again. Fake revolutions are cute and all, but think of how awesome it would be to never ever have to work for the man again. They can do anything they want...for profit, not for profit, TBD (Y Combinator). This wasn't some BS talent acquisition; this was an absolute shitloa…

"Fuck You money" is such a myth. More on this soon in another post.

Most of your blog posts strike me as you rationalizing why you aren't a hugely profitable company.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#49

Post by fallentimes »

old-gregg wrote: post #42

They were on their way to redefining an industry — one that was left for dead by the current custodians. I have never seen Mint and haven't used Quicken in ages. But isn't Mint the same thing only hosted? Where exactly did they innovate, I haven't heard of any exciting features. Anything here besides just "onlineness"?

It's the same thing as Yodlee.com (literally - Yodlee powers its backend) with a prettier user interface and waaaay better marketing.

Re: The Next Generation Bends Over

#50

Post by gruseom »

fnid wrote: post #35
fallentimes wrote: post #6

Please. $170 million is "fuck you" money. Aaron and I'm guessing many of the top founders/executives made enough money to never ever have to work again. Fake revolutions are cute and all, but think of how awesome it would be to never ever have to work for the man again. They can do anything they want...for profit, not for profit, TBD (Y Combinator). This wasn't some BS talent acquisition; this was an absolute shitloa…

FU money isn't only a big lump sum of cash. It can also be a residual flow of payments for SaaS or royalties or dividends. As long as that money is coming in every month, you're fine and can do most anything you want as well. Flipping a company is just one way to say FU to the man. I've said FU to the man lots of times, even when all I had was some cash I had saved up from working really hard and long hours at a sala…

lots of homeless people break free all the time and many of them are way happier than those receiving big exits for startups. That is not hyperbole.

Do you personally know some? Tell us about them. They must be remarkable people.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but your claim sure sounds like hyperbole. I know a few startup-exit-receivers who seem pretty happy. Of course it's hard to tell these things (http://robinson.bokardo.com/poem/richardcory and all that).

The only modern case that comes to my mind is the homeless guy who recently left $4 million to NPR. I seem to recall hearing information about him that made me think he might have been happy.

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