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A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

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Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#111

Post by troupe »

mcv wrote: post #62
yummyfajitas wrote: post #57

Ok, something about this story seems a bit amiss. Gayle Laakmann is complaining about people thinking she is a recruiter, supposedly because she's a woman. Hmm, I'm curious - who is this person? How does she portray herself? Are there any other possible reasons people might view her as someone working in the general HR space? http://www.gayle.com/consulting/ I can't imagine why a consultant who helps with "Technical…

If it was a man who claimed to be a programmer and who wrote the book on passing technical interviews for programmers, would you doubt he was a programmer? But because she's a woman who knows both programming and job interviews, you latch onto her recruiting aspect, and not her programming side. And note that people assumed she was a recruiter and not a programmer after she'd been talking code for an hour , not after…

There is a difference between saying that her audience didn't think she was currently a programmer and saying they didn't think she had ever worked as a programmer.

If you look at her blog, you will not assume she writes much code now days. If you look at the topics she speaks on, you will probably assume she doesn't write much code. If you look at what consulting services she provides, you'll assume that you can't hire her to write code for your company.

Perhaps this one talk was not listed on her site. Perhaps no one in the audience looked up her website to find out who she was while she was speaking. Perhaps, the speakers information was completely different than the way she presents what she does on her website.

Or maybe they didn't think she is currently working as a programmer because...well it doesn't currently look like she is primarily writing code for a living.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#112

Post by gaylemcd »

danielrpa wrote: post #109
gaylemcd wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The talk covered binary trees, breadth first search, dynamic programming, etc. It wasn't focused on fluffy topics. It'd be pretty unlikely to hear a recruiter talk at such a technical level.

Gayle, there is also the question of whether you are a programmer in the sense that you "can program" or if you are a programmer in the sense that you "program for a living". Different people will interpret the term differently. Based on your website and your book, you portray yourself as a Recruiting Consultant. So my assumption after seeing all the material you presented is that you are a programmer in the sense th…

Yes, that's fair. If you define "programmer" strictly as someone who currently holds a job title of "software developer", then sure, I'm not a programmer. Nor is, by that definition, a technical founder who's built their entire website. If that's the way you define the term "programmer", then sure, I'm not a programmer.

Of course, if you define it in the sense of what someone can do, has been employed specifically to do in the past, and continues to do as a core part of their job, then I am a programmer.

But, again, that's not relevant to the situation being described. The situation being described is not someone offhandedly saying that I'm not presently employed as a programmer, or asking about why I'm no longer a programmer [by some definitions]. You, and many other people, are creating new situations and saying "well if someone said X after you did Y, then it's totally reasonable." That's not the situation being described. It's the straw man fallacy.

I am describing a specific situation in which someone listened to a talk about data structures, algorithms, big O time, etc (yes, within the context of interviewing) and saying "So when you WERE a recruiter at Google, ...".

The information on my website is entirely irrelevant.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#113

Post by gaylemcd »

troupe wrote: post #110
gaylemcd wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. And then if someone's talking about binary trees, dynamic programming, depth first search, object oriented programming, don't you think you'd conclude "was or used to be a programmer"? Again THIS was the example. Stop constructing straw mans.

The quote in the article simply said that you can talk about code for an hour and people still think you are a recruiter. Most people take that to mean that people don't think you currently work as a programmer or more specifically, don't think you currently write code as your primary job function. Yes I agree, if someone talks for an hour about those technical topics, I'd assume they have experience as a programmer.…

What's frustrating is the continuous straw mans. People are creating new situations, saying that those situations wouldn't be sexist, and therefore using that to prove that I'm inappropriately assuming sexism. Straw man.

There are situations where it's reasonable to assume that I'm a recruiter, even if that assumption happens to be wrong. But this situation wasn't one of them.

It would also be fine to say that I'm not a programmer, depending on what you mean by that. I am a programmer, just like I'm an author. If you define it though as someone who is currently employed exclusively as a software developer, then sure, I'm not a software developer presently. But again, this isn't the situation being described.

This is a specific situation in which someone was at a talk where I spent an hour talking about big O time, data structures, algorithms, modularizing code, and a bunch of other technical talks and then asked me about my time as a recruiter at Google. It wouldn't matter if my website now said in giant flashing letters "HELLO I AM A RECRUITER." The person wasn't looking at the website (which didn't even exist then, at least not in that form).

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#114

Post by vonmoltke »

gaylemcd wrote: post #103
vonmoltke wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking for myself, if Gayle was a man, I would doubt he as a programmer as well. It's overall image, not gender. In fact, one of the posters highlighted in the blog post said just that, even though the author chose to take it as sexist anyway.

Um, actually, this is what the highlighted post said: "when you 'talk about' code for an hour and still ppl think you're a recruiter, that's not about gender - that's about your tech skill: people don't think you are a good coder. You looked like a saleman in that case if you are a guy or a recruiter if you are a girl. The key thing here is not your gender. You were looked down upon not because you are a female engin…

> So, first of all, the person is denying that it was about gender while basically saying that it is. If man -> sales If woman -> recruiter

Thus, the gender bias is as to which non-technical role the poster puts you in, not whether they think you are non-technical.

Yes, I was wrong to indicate there was nothing sexist at all about the post. I was thinking primarily of the non-technical part.

> Moreover, this person was suggesting that "incapable coder" -> not a coder. Which is sort of weird.

I see that sentiment expressed about programmers of all types. It's the idea that if you are not at a certain level you are a faker, and thus not really a "coder". I see such accusations leveled at people constantly, without regard to gender.

The core point I was making is that you are not being typecast as non-technical for being a woman. You are being typecast for the writings for which you are best known, not for being a woman.

EDIT: So, I posted this reply from my comments view four hours after my GP post. Then I went back and read your other comments. In that context, I change my opinion. The submitted blog post needs the details you posted in this thread, and on it's own does present a very strong argument.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#115

Post by humanrebar »

dragonwriter wrote: post #96
possibilistic wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure that reverse mapping is universal? I was going to go for a few anecdotal examples of people I would decidedly consider as counter-evidence to your claim: the Dalai Lama, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa, ... Then I realized that you're probably right. :(

I still occasionally run into people who refer to Dr. King as a Communist agitator (a sibling comment addressed the others).

The accusations of Communism are thin at best, but he was a plagarist and adulterer, which is especially egregious for a pastor. I'd say it's fair to say everyone has their selfish inclinations.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#116

Post by Mandatum »

gaylemcd wrote: post #102
yummyfajitas wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On your site, you advertise that you give talks on HR and recruiting and every talk listed is on that topic. To be clear, "Cracking the coding interview" is a recruiting/HR talk even if coding is involved. I wasn't there. I can't rule out the possibility that you a) didn't list this talk on your site, b) discussed a completely different topic than all your other listed talks and c) convey a completely different impre…

Your analogy is strange. You realize I have never worked as a recruiter, right? This is the second time you've referred to me as a recruiter. I do things in the intersection of interviewing and technology space, yes, but I've never worked as a recruiter. I know you know that I'm not a recruiter, so... whatcha up to over there? Whatcha trying to prove? This talk discussed coding at far more depth than the vast majorit…

Apart from #5 where they may have been hitting on you (insert mental clicking sound) and #7 where the comment level is renowned for .. well adjectives don't really describe it enough, I can feel your frustration from the other side of the world. I'm (not so) happy to admit I'm guilty of making assumptions of woman in the tech space, and I mentally slap myself when I do. It's a pain when people make assumptions of you, being young I get it occasionally but no where near the level woman and minorities do. Given my occasionally short fuse, I'd probably snap once or twice a week.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#117

Post by GhotiFish »

lk145 wrote: post #74
yummyfajitas wrote: post #57

Ok, something about this story seems a bit amiss. Gayle Laakmann is complaining about people thinking she is a recruiter, supposedly because she's a woman. Hmm, I'm curious - who is this person? How does she portray herself? Are there any other possible reasons people might view her as someone working in the general HR space? http://www.gayle.com/consulting/ I can't imagine why a consultant who helps with "Technical…

No recruiter, out of every recruiter I have ever spoken with from Google down to smaller startups, has ever discussed code with me beyond what languages I know and if I have experience writing tests. It is absurd to talk with someone about code for an hour and assume they are a recruiter.

that is absurd, completely and totally absurd. In fact I have trouble even imagining the most misogynistic of people sitting in on a talk about "coding" and coming to the conclusion that the person talking is a recruiter.

What was the talk on? Coding? Seems a bit broad, what was it actually on? Was it about passing technical questions in for programmer interviews? Details about some of the questions and ways methodologies to reach solutions?

If something seems utterly absurd to you, it might be because it is.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#118

Post by thesteamboat »

gaylemcd wrote: post #108
gaylemcd wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy is strange. You realize I have never worked as a recruiter, right? This is the second time you've referred to me as a recruiter. I do things in the intersection of interviewing and technology space, yes, but I've never worked as a recruiter. I know you know that I'm not a recruiter, so... whatcha up to over there? Whatcha trying to prove? This talk discussed coding at far more depth than the vast majorit…

> I'm arguing that when a person who advertises themselves online as being in HR and gives talks about HR, it's plausible that people might perceive them as being in HR for non-sexist reasons. But again, the situation isn't "someone looked at my website and thought I was a recruiter" or "someone saw that I was doing hiring consulting and thought I was a recruiter". It's giving a talk which is talking in depth about t…

I don't think it's fruitful to engage yummyfajitas in conversation. In my opinion/limited and indirect experience, he cares a little about being right, a lot about being provocative, and not at all for understanding experiences other than his own.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#119

Post by danielrpa »

gaylemcd wrote: post #112
danielrpa wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gayle, there is also the question of whether you are a programmer in the sense that you "can program" or if you are a programmer in the sense that you "program for a living". Different people will interpret the term differently. Based on your website and your book, you portray yourself as a Recruiting Consultant. So my assumption after seeing all the material you presented is that you are a programmer in the sense th…

Yes, that's fair. If you define "programmer" strictly as someone who currently holds a job title of "software developer", then sure, I'm not a programmer. Nor is, by that definition, a technical founder who's built their entire website. If that's the way you define the term "programmer", then sure, I'm not a programmer. Of course, if you define it in the sense of what someone can do, has been employed specifically to…

I didn't refer at all to the event, despite this thread being about the event. I was just making a point about the possibility of you not being seen as a "programmer".

Possibly I wouldn't characterize you as a recruiter or a programmer based on what you described.

I've been a development manager for many years and programming is an integral part of my role. But I'm a manager, not a "programmer", since I believe it's the dominant aspect of what I do.

So that choice of words could have been more influenced by a possible emphasis on the interview aspect of your role, rather than its programming aspect. I haven't seen the discussion so I can only speak from what I've read.

I've known many hiring managers who were not programmers and knew all of what you mentioned. Some of them were even program managers with a strong CS background - none of them programmers by any definition since they didn't program at all, ever.

Re: A hilariously sad tale of gender bias

#120

Post by lk145 »

GhotiFish wrote: post #117
lk145 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No recruiter, out of every recruiter I have ever spoken with from Google down to smaller startups, has ever discussed code with me beyond what languages I know and if I have experience writing tests. It is absurd to talk with someone about code for an hour and assume they are a recruiter.

that is absurd, completely and totally absurd. In fact I have trouble even imagining the most misogynistic of people sitting in on a talk about "coding" and coming to the conclusion that the person talking is a recruiter. What was the talk on? Coding? Seems a bit broad, what was it actually on? Was it about passing technical questions in for programmer interviews? Details about some of the questions and ways methodol…

> This talk discussed coding at far more depth than the vast majority of recruiters could do. How many recruiters could tell you about big O time? Binary trees? Breadth first search? Not many.

Source https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8291665

Interesting you can't imagine this, because as a woman, similar situations as Gayle's have happened to me and to every female programmer I know. I have talked about code to people at language and framework-specific meetups only for them to later assume I'm not a programmer.

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