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China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

bbc.co.uk

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Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#81

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast »

Jack000 wrote: post #52
veidr wrote: post #20

I've watched with fascination as the Japanese Senkaku islands slowly and gradually came to be labeled 'disputed' in the western media, after China's recent claims. It seems like China has figured out a way to hack the media (the free media outside of China, I mean -- the government there obviously has root on Chinese TV and newspapers). Japanese ownership of this territory is basically as settled under international…

the claims on the South China sea are patently ridiculous, but I don't think it can be compared with the senkaku islands. From what I've read China actually did have better claim over those islands prior to 1884 and immediately after WWII, but didn't assert those claims because well.. the islands were worthless. Now that they've found oil they want to roll back the clock. I think there is a fundamental cultural diffe…

"To the west if you found a piece of land and lived there for 100 years, it's yours - that's how the US was founded after all"

You, uh, do realize that every piece of land in the US was found first by people who were already living there?

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#83

Post by adventured »

meric wrote: post #64
justin66 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but that's stupid on a number of levels. First, territorial claims can be made with or without war, the later of which is (thankfully!) what we're actually talking about with China and the islands. Second, anyone who thinks that the government in Iraq has been a puppet of the United States just isn't paying attention. I get it, you don't like the United States, but you're desperately trying to draw equivalenci…

Whether US wanted to or intended to "colonize" the Middle East is irrelevant. For a few years US used its army so that it could hold swathes of Iraqi territory to do what it does and that is just a fact.

What exactly did the US do with vast swathes of Iraqi territory for those years?

China is the one that made out like a bandit with the new supply of Iraqi oil. The US only got a giant bill out of it all for over a trillion dollars, a lot of dead and injured soldiers, and a lot of destroyed military hardware.

What the US didn't acquire: Iraq's oil; land; tax revenue; any territorial claims; the right to station large numbers of troops in Iraqi territory; gold or other plunder.

And further, the US left when it was told to. The supposed US puppet threw the US out, and we didn't do anything to them with our military in response.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#84

Post by adventured »

shangxiao wrote: post #55
afterburner wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now? Nuclear World War has been a possibility for 60 years now. And 60 years ago the US was actually fighting China.

Yes but the threat of a nuclear war has been considerably low for the past 20 years. Now we have generations of people not knowing what it was like to live under the threat of nuclear annihilation.

Not to mention the world keeps acquiring more nuclear powers (India, Pakistan, N. Korea), rather than reducing them.

Likely more will come on board in the next decade. Such as Saudi Arabia, Brazil, and so on. I would expect another country or two to go nuclear in Asia in response to China's mighty military.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#85

Post by adventured »

philosophus wrote: post #7
adventured wrote: post #2

Every time I see discussion about the nine dash line, I can't help but wonder how it can seem sane to anybody that China should have the water rights to an area ~600 km south of what is blatantly Vietnam's coastal waters (and the southern tip of their land) and just barely north of Malaysia's physical territory. I know the correct answer is: China doesn't care, and isn't concerned with reason when it comes to the nin…

"there is only who has the military power to dictate terms." That's generally how these things work, yes. What were you expecting?

That's exactly what I was expecting.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#86

Post by Symmetry »

crapshoot101 wrote: post #44
veidr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan's self-defense force is better-equipped, I will grant, but there are a few reasons. One is that there is always a higher level China could escalate to. I mean, in the end game they have nukes and Japan doesn't. But even if it didn't get to that level, China is a totalitarian regime with a history of brutally suppressing dissent, and I also assume that China would be willing to lose a lot more lives to make gain…

Japan may not officially have nuclear weapons, but they do not lack the capability - if they decided to weaponize (which would never happen short of a Chinese existential threat), they could do so in a matters of days, not months - the nuclear knowhow is clearly there. The rest of your point is fair - for Japan to go to war would take a fundamental shift in the country, and its questionable whether the Senkaku Island…

I think you're underestimating how long it takes to separate U238 from U235 or breed plutonium.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#87

Post by scarmig »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #81
Jack000 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the claims on the South China sea are patently ridiculous, but I don't think it can be compared with the senkaku islands. From what I've read China actually did have better claim over those islands prior to 1884 and immediately after WWII, but didn't assert those claims because well.. the islands were worthless. Now that they've found oil they want to roll back the clock. I think there is a fundamental cultural diffe…

"To the west if you found a piece of land and lived there for 100 years, it's yours - that's how the US was founded after all" You, uh, do realize that every piece of land in the US was found first by people who were already living there?

Technically speaking, those same people didn't live there too long once colonizers and the US government arrived.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#88

Post by mchouza »

Symmetry wrote: post #86
crapshoot101 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan may not officially have nuclear weapons, but they do not lack the capability - if they decided to weaponize (which would never happen short of a Chinese existential threat), they could do so in a matters of days, not months - the nuclear knowhow is clearly there. The rest of your point is fair - for Japan to go to war would take a fundamental shift in the country, and its questionable whether the Senkaku Island…

I think you're underestimating how long it takes to separate U238 from U235 or breed plutonium.

Japan has more than 1000 kg of HEU: http://www.nti.org/analysis/articles/civilian-heu-japan/

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#89

Post by mikeash »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #81
Jack000 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the claims on the South China sea are patently ridiculous, but I don't think it can be compared with the senkaku islands. From what I've read China actually did have better claim over those islands prior to 1884 and immediately after WWII, but didn't assert those claims because well.. the islands were worthless. Now that they've found oil they want to roll back the clock. I think there is a fundamental cultural diffe…

"To the west if you found a piece of land and lived there for 100 years, it's yours - that's how the US was founded after all" You, uh, do realize that every piece of land in the US was found first by people who were already living there?

That's the point he's making: if you occupy land for a century or so, we tend to consider it yours, regardless of what happened prior.

Re: China's Island Factory – New islands being made in disputed China Sea

#90

Post by mikeash »

sdrothrock wrote: post #26
veidr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan's self-defense force is better-equipped, I will grant, but there are a few reasons. One is that there is always a higher level China could escalate to. I mean, in the end game they have nukes and Japan doesn't. But even if it didn't get to that level, China is a totalitarian regime with a history of brutally suppressing dissent, and I also assume that China would be willing to lose a lot more lives to make gain…

> But they haven't committed any military aggression toward any country in more than 65 years. Well, yeah. It's in their constitution. > It is my personal opinion that there is almost no way that the people of Japan (where I live, though I am American) would support a war against China. Even if China just up and landed an occupying force on Japan's Senkaku islands. Perhaps not over the Senkaku Islands, but I think th…

Americans are weary of pointless, stupid wars involving people we never heard of in countries we can't find on a map.

But touch our territory, and you're going to wish you hadn't. It doesn't matter if nobody knows where Wake Island is or if nobody lives there. It doesn't matter if it's fairly unimportant. It's ours, and Americans are intensely territorial.

If China landed troops on Wake Island, I'm pretty sure that the less war-hungry side of Congress, whichever that may be at the time, would be calling for bombing campaigns, carrier task forces, and an immediate counter-invasion. The hawks would need to be bodily restrained from launching ICBMs.

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