Stop and Seize • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop and Seize

#131

Post by otterley » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:03 PM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #35

tomohawk wrote: post #6

Near the end, they talk about how police can use psychological pressure to keep someone at the side of the road, not telling them they can leave any time the initial traffic stop is over. They then make 'productive' use of that time. Why you should never talk to police: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

Judging from the 5 or 6 cops I know personally (neighbors and what not), there's basically nothing you can do if they want something from you. They will lie or provoke you into doing something, even worse, one of the cops I know had a story about how someone said, "no, you cannot search my vehicle." The cop then asked if he wanted to be arrested for resisting arrest, and the guy gave in because he has no idea what hi…

> They will lie or provoke you into doing something

I would love to see a law on the books that forbids law enforcement officers from lying to witnesses or the accused to extract evidence or confessions. After all, it's unlawful to lie to them; the playing field should be level on both ends.

Re: Stop and Seize

#132

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:04 PM UTC

psykovsky wrote: post #88

coldcode wrote: post #23

All that will happen from this is that criminals will find ways to move money without cash (like bitcoins, etc) and the only people caught will be non-criminals or really stupid criminals. Everything evolves in reaction to pressures.

They sould start impounding cars. Those are weapons.

There was a case a while back where someone was convicted of being an accessory to a serious crime and jailed for an extended period because they lent their car to the perp, who - inexplicably - didn't mention it was going to be used for criminal activity.

The prosecutor argued 'No car, no crime', and the jury bought it.

To me that's like arguing 'No clothes, no crime' and jailing the board of Walmart for selling underwear. Or 'No food, no crime' and jailing the staff of a nearby diner.

Re: Stop and Seize

#133

Post by solutionviatech » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:07 PM UTC

--------Can we solve part of this problem through a smartphone app? -----------------

Here are my initial thoughts on how it would work, feel free to comment on better ways to implement it / other features

1) If you get pulled over by a cop, you start up the smart phone app and place the phone in the windshield mount (the mount should have power so the phone battery doesn't die)

2) When the app starts, it immediately starts recording (or streaming) audio and video

3) The app quickly connects/matches you to a real lawyer versed in your state's laws

4) Your newly matched lawyer can listen in on the subsequent conversation between you and the police officer. Or alternatively, the lawyer could act as a buffer and do all the talking with the police officer.

Benefits of the app: 5) Since the police officer knows he's being recorded, he may act nicer and more appropriately.

6) If the cop does try to "play games" such as holding the person without arresting, then the lawyer can quickly "step in" and ask the cop if his client is free to leave or whether he is under arrest.

Problems that I'm not sure how to solve:

7) Maybe the cop will tell the driver to step out of the car and around to the back of the vehicle - with the motivation of getting out of earshot of the lawyer/smartphone app.

8) Looking through a cynical lens, this app may face scrutiny by cop unions opposed to it - in how to shut it down

Re: Stop and Seize

#134

Post by stanleydrew » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:07 PM UTC

ejr wrote: post #125

DominikR wrote: post #117

Why doesn't your society resist? Parts of your police is now equiped like an army on a battlefield and money can be seized without any reasoning. And then there's NSA spying, torture and drone executions of suspected terrorists (even US citizens) without trial. If someone would have told me 20 years ago, that the US will turn into this, I would have thought that this person must be insane. Now it wouldn't even surpri…

Because resistance is futile. The machinery of government explicitly favours authority and that very authority was given to them willingly by the voting - or non voting - masses. It is the authority that everyone, including the plundered, believe they must have in order to keep them safe. Resistance takes courage and a willingness to lose everything you care about, such as your prideful opinion, free time or an hour…

When the effort needed to change government matches that of a retweet, we're all screwed. People should take at least a little time to make a considered decision about where the government is headed.

Some things are dangerous when they become too easy. Like obtaining a driver's license, or purchasing a gun.

Re: Stop and Seize

#135

Post by timdev2 » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:11 PM UTC

kohanz wrote: post #77

jjoonathan wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize what this sounds like to someone without access to enough cash on hand to smooth over the insanity of our banking process? "Screw you, I've got mine."

I certainly don't read it in that way. Carrying that amount of cash is a high-risk venture regardless of whether these questionable seizures are happening or not (e.g. the threat of theft). The other methods mentioned may cost a bit, but that cost goes towards lowering the risk of the transaction. For someone carrying 5-figures worth of cash, how can those costs be prohibitively expensive?

Don't you think it's a bit strange that the biggest risk to your wad of $100 bills, as you drive down the highway, is not criminal robbers, but the police?

Re: Stop and Seize

#136

Post by javajosh » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:12 PM UTC

solutionviatech wrote: post #133

--------Can we solve part of this problem through a smartphone app? ----------------- Here are my initial thoughts on how it would work, feel free to comment on better ways to implement it / other features 1) If you get pulled over by a cop, you start up the smart phone app and place the phone in the windshield mount (the mount should have power so the phone battery doesn't die) 2) When the app starts, it immediately…

It's a good idea, but it hinges entirely on streaming at least audio, as it hinges on getting real-time help of a lawyer. It also assumes that there are lots of lawyers out there sitting at a computer and willing to listen to police convos, and step in, for free.

Perhaps lawyers would want to be involved as a loss leader for new business? I don't know.

Re: Stop and Seize

#137

Post by zorrb » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:13 PM UTC

Reading through these comments, I see quite a bit of ignorance. A lot along the lines of, "Why would you ever carry cash!?" Which fortunately a lot of cogent comment have successfully answered. Another is, "Why would you carry that much cash it's so RISKY?"

As someone whose had to carry around five figure sums around quite a bit in the past because of my profession (hint: it rhymes with "rambling") my far and away, it's not even close, fear is having the money taken by cops from an illegal search. This fear is justified because I've never been mugged or robbed and no one I know who was in the same line of work has either. But I know MANY people who have had funds seized by cops. ESPECIALLY in the south. Actually the horror stories I personally know about have happened only in the south.

Usually it's the cop seeing an out of state license. Pull you over, lies and says you were "swerving" or refuses to give you a reason. Then forces you out of the car, takes the money and sayonara.

Re: Stop and Seize

#138

Post by Floegipoky » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:15 PM UTC

icantthinkofone wrote: post #20

This story is so unbelievably biased and one-sided, it confirms my suspicions of the value of the Washington Post anymore. Carrying $75K in cash around should raise anyone's suspicions as to the purpose, no matter what the carrier claims. Think about it. Why would YOU carry $75K in cash? The obvious and well known reasons are, it's the most secure way to fund drug and terrorist cells without leaving a trail. The Post…

> Think about it. Why would YOU carry $75K in cash?

So the decision you've made (not to use cash) based on your personal preferences should bind the rest of the humans in this country as well. There are people from every corner of the world living in America, and you have decided that your world view and experience is the only valid one; their rights should be forfeit simply because they live their lives in a way that you yourself do not.

I have noticed this disturbing trend of pride coupled with ignorance among Americans. So many of us lack an understanding and appreciation for the core principles that our founding documents were based on. You've demonstrated a complete and utter lack of understanding of what a "right" actually is. Just because you have personally decided that your rights to due process and to be free from unreasonable seizures are unimportant does not mean that you can in any way make the same decision for anyone else. That's why we call them "rights" and not "privileges". Rights in this country are a property belonging to individual human beings, not collectively, and not to the state.

Re: Stop and Seize

#139

Post by psykovsky » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:16 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #132

psykovsky wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sould start impounding cars. Those are weapons.

There was a case a while back where someone was convicted of being an accessory to a serious crime and jailed for an extended period because they lent their car to the perp, who - inexplicably - didn't mention it was going to be used for criminal activity. The prosecutor argued 'No car, no crime', and the jury bought it. To me that's like arguing 'No clothes, no crime' and jailing the board of Walmart for selling und…

Stupid, ain't it? ;)

Re: Stop and Seize

#140

Post by kohanz » Sun, Sep 07, 2014, 5:16 PM UTC

kohanz wrote: post #55

This is by no means a justification for these seizures, but in reading this I can't help but wonder in what legitimate situations one would actually need to carry such large amounts of cash. Would a money-order or bank-certified check not do the job, or would those be seizable by the police as well? Again, I say this more in a "how can I avoid this type of situation" sense, rather than implying that there was any wro…

Despite all attempts to explain that my post is a question, rather than a judgment on the victims, I'm getting down-voted.