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Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

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Re: Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

#51

Post by seanmcdirmid »

taeric wrote: post #41
zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That thread doesn't exactly inspire confidence in choosing Scala as a platform, to be honest. This is exactly the message that Paul Phillips has been spreading these past months. Personally, I hope he decides to just create his own language, I would be extremely interested to follow this.

I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. I get that he is very capable. I don't think he is necessarily doing the platform any favors with this attitude or fork. That is, how is this helping? If he gets a better compiler out, great. Are the odds high that will happen? Especially with the history that the community has had with a few high profile individuals either constantly…

Come on. Scala is a big tent language that attracts people from a wide variety of ideals, which invites some amount of arguing. Also, Martin tends to hire independent thinkers, which is good and bad.

Re: Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

#52

Post by saryant »

taeric wrote: post #41
zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That thread doesn't exactly inspire confidence in choosing Scala as a platform, to be honest. This is exactly the message that Paul Phillips has been spreading these past months. Personally, I hope he decides to just create his own language, I would be extremely interested to follow this.

I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. I get that he is very capable. I don't think he is necessarily doing the platform any favors with this attitude or fork. That is, how is this helping? If he gets a better compiler out, great. Are the odds high that will happen? Especially with the history that the community has had with a few high profile individuals either constantly…

The Scala community isn't toxic.

There's been drama and each time the community has moved on. Paul, Tony Morris and probably others from before I started paying any attention. Even with this recent "drama", after thinking about it for a few days, I've come to welcome it if anything. Regular Scala can shift its focus to becoming a conservative language while Typelevel acts as the incubator. If the two meet their compatibility goals, everyone wins.

I'd also argue that "constantly making waves" is an overstatement. Scala just celebrated its tenth birthday. How much drama has there really been in this community over ten years? For the most part, I've found it to be very supportive. My interactions are almost entirely just on the mailing lists but I've seen few issues. Maybe I'm just blind to them, who knows.

I recognize that tensions within the community are high but I don't currently believe that they present an insurmountable challenge to Scala's future.

Re: Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

#53

Post by frowaway001 »

saryant wrote: post #52
taeric wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. I get that he is very capable. I don't think he is necessarily doing the platform any favors with this attitude or fork. That is, how is this helping? If he gets a better compiler out, great. Are the odds high that will happen? Especially with the history that the community has had with a few high profile individuals either constantly…

The Scala community isn't toxic. There's been drama and each time the community has moved on. Paul, Tony Morris and probably others from before I started paying any attention. Even with this recent "drama", after thinking about it for a few days, I've come to welcome it if anything. Regular Scala can shift its focus to becoming a conservative language while Typelevel acts as the incubator. If the two meet their compa…

This.

You are absolutely right.

The usual Scala-hate-brigade will jump on this "smoking gun" and will build a few new talking points on top of it how Scala will fail definitely this time for sure ... but outside their bubble nobody cares and just moves on shipping software in Scala.

Re: Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

#54

Post by extempore »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #51
taeric wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. I get that he is very capable. I don't think he is necessarily doing the platform any favors with this attitude or fork. That is, how is this helping? If he gets a better compiler out, great. Are the odds high that will happen? Especially with the history that the community has had with a few high profile individuals either constantly…

Come on. Scala is a big tent language that attracts people from a wide variety of ideals, which invites some amount of arguing. Also, Martin tends to hire independent thinkers, which is good and bad.

For the record, martin has never hired me for anything. I co-founded a company with him.

Re: Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

#55

Post by seanmcdirmid »

extempore wrote: post #54
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. Scala is a big tent language that attracts people from a wide variety of ideals, which invites some amount of arguing. Also, Martin tends to hire independent thinkers, which is good and bad.

For the record, martin has never hired me for anything. I co-founded a company with him.

I know nothing about type safe, which is way after my time.

Re: Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

#56

Post by saryant »

frowaway001 wrote: post #53
saryant wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Scala community isn't toxic. There's been drama and each time the community has moved on. Paul, Tony Morris and probably others from before I started paying any attention. Even with this recent "drama", after thinking about it for a few days, I've come to welcome it if anything. Regular Scala can shift its focus to becoming a conservative language while Typelevel acts as the incubator. If the two meet their compa…

This. You are absolutely right. The usual Scala-hate-brigade will jump on this "smoking gun" and will build a few new talking points on top of it how Scala will fail definitely this time for sure ... but outside their bubble nobody cares and just moves on shipping software in Scala.

I hate to call someone out like this, but to be perfectly honest I don't think your tone helps matters much.

Stop attacking the people who don't like Scala (real or imaginary). Disagree, fine, but this rampant fanboyism is odd. Yes, the language has a few critics on HN whose critiques are mostly FUD. Argue against the FUD but when you attack them you only cheapen your own position.

I'm just trying to say that there's a way to be effective about this.

(I realize I'm attacking a person about attacking a person, I get it)

Re: Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

#57

Post by frowaway001 »

saryant wrote: post #56
frowaway001 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. You are absolutely right. The usual Scala-hate-brigade will jump on this "smoking gun" and will build a few new talking points on top of it how Scala will fail definitely this time for sure ... but outside their bubble nobody cares and just moves on shipping software in Scala.

I hate to call someone out like this, but to be perfectly honest I don't think your tone helps matters much. Stop attacking the people who don't like Scala (real or imaginary). Disagree, fine, but this rampant fanboyism is odd. Yes, the language has a few critics on HN whose critiques are mostly FUD. Argue against the FUD but when you attack them you only cheapen your own position. I'm just trying to say that there's…

Thanks. I guess I sound more serious than I actually am.

I find it kind of funny that we have like usually one username which gifts us with his presence in every Scala-related topic for usually ~6 months and then disappears.

Either it's the same guy who just changes accounts like here: http://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/1sdmdq/sockpuppet_acc... http://www.reddit.com/r/scala/comments/25kwb1/cedric_beust_c...; or it's a series of people all completely unaware that dozens of earlier crusades failed.

Both options are amusing. :-)

Re: Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

#58

Post by 1ris »

frowaway001 wrote: post #47
benjaminjackman wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same things? I don't know what you mean, It was a language feature back in the 2.7 days I think? I was a long time ago, hard to remember when they got rid of it. It's really nice for this: val color = List( "Red", "Yellow", "Green", ) If I want to add a 4th element I just ctrl+alt+down, I don't have to go back up and add the comma at the end of the last line, I spend too much time juggling commas in lists for my liki…

> It's one of those minor QOL improvements where I don't see what the downside is. That's a nice example why 99.9% of developers out there should never design a language.

Great explanation!

Re: Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

#59

Post by eklavya »

extempore wrote: post #50
taeric wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. I get that he is very capable. I don't think he is necessarily doing the platform any favors with this attitude or fork. That is, how is this helping? If he gets a better compiler out, great. Are the odds high that will happen? Especially with the history that the community has had with a few high profile individuals either constantly…

> I would actually say that he is making it worse, in some respects. Many, actually. Oh, for sure. The key though is that the value of "it" which I am making worse is not a value of "it" which I have any interest in making better. Nor would I ever suggest otherwise. In your mind I may be nothing but an input into your total utility function, but there's no reason for you to expect me to care about maximizing it.

I have not the knowledge to make an opinion on this topic but that last line is a really cool statement, what a way to put it :D

Re: Policy – A fork of the Scala compiler

#60

Post by vidarh »

extempore wrote: post #44
tormeh wrote: post #14

Why are parallel collections an "albatross"? I can understand it if he plans to replace the functionality you get by writing "list.par.map(func).seq" with "list.parmap(func)" or something, though. Parallel list functions are one of my favorite features in Scala, and I think it would be a serious loss if they disappeared. Also, I wonder what the two Scala forkers are thinking about Dotty (the next-gen Typesafe scala c…

It's not a question of whether they should exist at all but of whether they should infiltrate the collections hierarchy to the extent that someone has to maintain code which looks like this. And there's plenty of it: this is only an example. trait ParIterableViewLike[+T, +Coll

As a recovering former C++ programmer, that reminds me of the verbosity of C++ meta programming...
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