The Unexotic Underclass • Hacker News Board

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#291

Post by djc14 » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 5:40 PM UTC

trevelyan wrote: post #263

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article resonated with me when it mentioned "(or, because they suspect no one will invest in what they really want to do)." >Many problems have an 80% software solution attached to a 20% "interface with the real world" mandatory bit. My "Big Problem" is Education. I'd almost flip those numbers -- 20% software, 80% "interface with the real world." Throw in non-trivial entrenched interests including existing teache…

I run an education startup and respectfully disagree -- parent poster is correct that the industry is really not welcoming for entrepreneurs, at least for people who have ambitions for things like home ownership or healthcare or relationships. The major problem is that people who need to learn something are by definition the least able to evaluate what they need. So the dominant incentive is for companies to produce…

It sounds like you actually largely agree with SomeCallMeTim. His point above is that solving Education is a Big Problem that has many non-trivial issues involved (entrenched interests, low budgets, slow purchase cycles, etc.), yet he "still wants to try." You make the point that the "industry is not welcoming for entrepreneurs", but at the same time, you are running an education start-up, which suggests to me that you believe it is possible to make a dent in the problems plaguing education.

My Big Problem to solve is education as well, and currently, I'm still trying to figure out the best way to tackle the root cause. I feel we are all inclined to use technology as the path to success, but perhaps more fundamental issues need to be dealt with first. If this is the case, then which issue do we initially target -fighting predatory business practices, creating a culture that values education, establishing employment credibility for non-traditional education, something else?

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#292

Post by SomeCallMeTim » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 7:16 PM UTC

trevelyan wrote: post #263

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article resonated with me when it mentioned "(or, because they suspect no one will invest in what they really want to do)." >Many problems have an 80% software solution attached to a 20% "interface with the real world" mandatory bit. My "Big Problem" is Education. I'd almost flip those numbers -- 20% software, 80% "interface with the real world." Throw in non-trivial entrenched interests including existing teache…

I run an education startup and respectfully disagree -- parent poster is correct that the industry is really not welcoming for entrepreneurs, at least for people who have ambitions for things like home ownership or healthcare or relationships. The major problem is that people who need to learn something are by definition the least able to evaluate what they need. So the dominant incentive is for companies to produce…

>The major problem is that people who need to learn something are by definition the least able to evaluate what they need.

I have to respectfully but firmly disagree with this assertion.

Kids are born to learn. They seek out experiences that involve learning, and they lap it up voluntarily when given the chance.

School, as it's currently designed, does its best to remove all of the natural fun from learning.

Read about Sudbury Schools if you don't believe this can work. [1] They have no curriculum or standardized testing, and yet 85% of the kids who graduate go on to get higher degrees.

>More direct connections between education and employment would help, but the connection is often weaker than one would think from the political rhetoric thrown around, especially considering that education is often a proxy term for "credentials" or "signaling" in public rather than knowledge.

You're referring to the current (i.e., completely profoundly broken) educational system. The current system was designed for the industrial age to create interchangeable cogs in the manufacturing machine. It actively suppresses creativity and individuality. It requires all the various kids to learn in lock-step, which in reality they never do.

So of course what currently passes for "education" is poorly correlated with employment results. But what I want to do is fix education so that it does a good job, not optimize the current IMO broken system.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#293

Post by SomeCallMeTim » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 7:23 PM UTC

djc14 wrote: post #291

trevelyan wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run an education startup and respectfully disagree -- parent poster is correct that the industry is really not welcoming for entrepreneurs, at least for people who have ambitions for things like home ownership or healthcare or relationships. The major problem is that people who need to learn something are by definition the least able to evaluate what they need. So the dominant incentive is for companies to produce…

It sounds like you actually largely agree with SomeCallMeTim. His point above is that solving Education is a Big Problem that has many non-trivial issues involved (entrenched interests, low budgets, slow purchase cycles, etc.), yet he "still wants to try." You make the point that the "industry is not welcoming for entrepreneurs", but at the same time, you are running an education start-up, which suggests to me that y…

As I just mentioned in another response, you should look at Sudbury Schools [1] for inspiration on how education should work.

The entire current educational system is based on creating interchangeable docile workers for manufacturing jobs.

What we need moving forward are creative, intelligent, and self-motivated individuals who will create value in a service/information economy.

I just listened to a story on public radio that talked about business-without-employees, and referred to the new "Participation Age" as the future. It's worth a listen. [2] He also brings up Sudbury Schools as an example of this philosophy as it applies to education.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudbury_school

[2] http://www.cpr.org/news/story/why-employees-are-bad-idea

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#294

Post by SomeCallMeTim » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 7:32 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #49

burgers wrote: post #29

I can sum this up so very simply. The way to make the most money is to get as close to money as possible. Hence why finance is such a lucrative career. We are seeing the obvious flaws of capitalism now that capital is no longer tied to low skill labor for manufacturing. Want to make a ton of money 1 year from today and have good credit? Spend your days with an MLS subscription finding under-priced homes to flip in a…

Are you a millionaire real estate speculator? Knowing something about it, your scenario strikes me as neither low-risk nor guaranteed. If it were low-risk and guaranteed, it would be profitably scaled -- capital is available in abundance. why so much money is flowing into blockchains It's an asset bubble backed by an extraordinarily sophisticated emergent P2P Internet marketing operation which is a quantum leap impro…

My parents eventually made "millionaire" status on real estate investments.

And you're 100% right.

The reason my parents did well is that:

a) Few people (at the time) knew about tax and bank auctions

b) At the time both kinds of auctions required that you show up and pay in cash equivalent. They had a worker's comp settlement that allowed them to invest in properties where others didn't have the cash. Now banks tend to let you finance REO properties.

c) My dad was a competent home inspector/contractor who could tell (within reasonable margin of error) if a house was a good deal, and could do the work himself to fix it up

d) It was the Right Time to be investing in their geographical area

So yes, it's possible to do something like this, but for the most part you need to have access to a source of properties that is not already being shopped by a ton of competitors, have access to a building inspection skillset (or pay $400+ per property you inspect), have access to inexpensive contractors (or they'll eat up your profit), and to a certain extent, you need to be lucky and invest in the right market at the right time.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#295

Post by alasdair_ » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 7:36 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #242

tsunamifury wrote: post #164

I built language learning applications that reached over 10 million users in the developing world and my brother built a startup that employs only ex-cons in one of the worst neighborhoods in America. We learned a few things from actually doing this: TL;DR its really expensive to make products for the 'forgotten underclass' due to many unforeseen issues. 1) Poor areas are overrun with corruption and graft. Its very h…

One other thing here: credit. It relates to #5, but drastically increases the cost of doing business. The "unexotic underclass" tends to not be very prompt at paying their bills. They often don't have credit cards (or even enough credit to get one), so the typical billing mechanisms are out of the question. Things get prioritized, and a lot of people will choose to let their bills go to collections before they pay th…

>There's a reason nobody goes after the "underclass" at any scale

There are plenty of companies that go after the underclass at scale - things like "no bank needed" debit cards, prepaid phone cards, payday loansharks, western union-style money transfer businesses, public transport companies etc.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#296

Post by _archon_ » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 8:27 PM UTC

chillingeffect wrote: post #270

Houshalter wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you give someone land below market value, they will probably just sell it and pocket the difference. It's functionally equivalent to just giving them cash. If they want land they can go buy it.

If you sell land below market value to someone who already has a place to live they will probably just sell it and pocket the difference. If you sell land below market value to someone who has no other place to live , they will live on it and use the money to buy books, healthcare, tools, nutritious food and cooking utensils. Thus stands my statement that landowners squeeze the poor.

If you sell land below market value to someone who has no other place to live, they will live there only so long as it will take to arrange to move somewhere cheaper when they sell their land for market value and pocket the difference. They will then have money left over to spend on healthcare, tools, etc.

I'm not sure I agree with your statement that landowners squeeze the poor more than anyone else does.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#297

Post by jazzyk » Fri, Sep 05, 2014, 3:50 AM UTC

jamesash wrote: post #272

jazzyk wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does national defense cost have to do with it? France, ranked consistently as one of the countries with the best health-care, spends 12% vs the US (ranked waaay lower) spending 18%. Several other countries have even better quality-to-cost ratios (Japan, etc)

>What does national defense cost have to do with it? Uh, more headroom for entitlement programs in general? I see France at 10%, not 12%, http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_de_l'État_français but even at the latter number, that 6% difference (280 bn) would pay for a quarter of Medicare+Medicaid. With Medicaid costs set to expand by 12% under Obamacare next year (by 50 bn) eventually leading to 50% reduction in unins…

The only sustainable way to insure everyone is to lower the cost of healthcare. My insurance premium went up 15% since Obamacare was introduced (as opposed to "mere" 11% in previous years). I don;t know what I am going to do next year.

This flies in the face of the claims that "if everyone pays in, it will be cheaper for everyone". Not happening.

I agree that having universal coverage is great (and long overdue), but there are much better ways of achieving it.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#298

Post by SomeCallMeTim » Fri, Sep 05, 2014, 7:42 AM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #144

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>that can be solved with very simple things like diet and exercise. "Very simple", applied to diet? Try very controversial. There are tons of different "good diet" theories, and many of them are mutually contradictory. I've tried several, and done a lot of research. I've settled on "low carb" as sustainable, healthy, and actually effective -- and it doesn't need to be terribly expensive (though it's likely more expen…

I didn't really want to get into the weeds with the comment, but every single diet starts with the same thing: Eliminate artificial sources or additions of fructose / sucrose. I'm not advocating cutting glucose or even the elimination of starch. I'm saying cutting out the Coca Cola and the sugar we add to yogurt / chocolate milk / pies / ice cream / sauces / candy / cake / muffins / donuts / pizza (sugary tomato sauc…

>high in cholesterol and saturated fats, usually high in sodium

...which are not bad for you. That's part of the controversy.

Eating cholesterol doesn't raise your cholesterol. Piles of studies show this. Eating carbs raises your cholesterol.

There are basically no studies that show eating saturated fat is bad for you. The one study that was pushed by industry (and a SINGLE nutrition researcher who happened to be leading the FDA) back in the 50's was using hydrogenated coconut oil. Even the recent FDA guidelines admit there's no research-based reason to avoid saturated fats.

And salt turns out to be fine for you unless you've already got high blood pressure.

>devoid of many nutrients that are good for long term health and exercise

I do eat vegetables. I eat almost zero fructose (what you'd find in a small handful of blueberries, once a day or so), and less than a couple of teaspoons-worth of sucrose in a typical day. And I get about 6-8 hours of intense exercise in a typical week.

But all of that was true before I went low-carb, and I was stuck around 200 lbs unless I effectively starved myself. With no other lifestyle changes, switching to a low-carb (and high fat) diet caused me to drop 30 pounds in six months; my memory improved, my thinking is more clear, and I've been healthier (and lighter) than I've been since high school.

No other diets I've tried have worked (including going nearly vegan at one point, and trying to go low-fat caused me to sink into depression, which is a known side-effect). This one works and is awesome. I don't see ever going back.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#299

Post by rmc » Fri, Sep 05, 2014, 11:21 AM UTC

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #294

patio11 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you a millionaire real estate speculator? Knowing something about it, your scenario strikes me as neither low-risk nor guaranteed. If it were low-risk and guaranteed, it would be profitably scaled -- capital is available in abundance. why so much money is flowing into blockchains It's an asset bubble backed by an extraordinarily sophisticated emergent P2P Internet marketing operation which is a quantum leap impro…

My parents eventually made "millionaire" status on real estate investments. And you're 100% right. The reason my parents did well is that: a) Few people (at the time) knew about tax and bank auctions b) At the time both kinds of auctions required that you show up and pay in cash equivalent . They had a worker's comp settlement that allowed them to invest in properties where others didn't have the cash. Now banks tend…

So not exactly a "guarantee" that you'll be "a millionaire in a year" then?

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#300

Post by trevelyan » Fri, Sep 05, 2014, 8:06 PM UTC

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #292

trevelyan wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I run an education startup and respectfully disagree -- parent poster is correct that the industry is really not welcoming for entrepreneurs, at least for people who have ambitions for things like home ownership or healthcare or relationships. The major problem is that people who need to learn something are by definition the least able to evaluate what they need. So the dominant incentive is for companies to produce…

>The major problem is that people who need to learn something are by definition the least able to evaluate what they need. I have to respectfully but firmly disagree with this assertion. Kids are born to learn. They seek out experiences that involve learning, and they lap it up voluntarily when given the chance. School, as it's currently designed, does its best to remove all of the natural fun from learning. Read abo…

I was thinking more of adult education, the same principle applies to children. Socrates had the example that if schoolboys could choose their teachers, they would elect the pastry chef.

Just focusing on the adult education market, it is extremely clear that the most well-known educational products are those associated with non-educational marketing factors: institutional prestige (MOOCs), television advertising (Rosetta Stone), famous people (Bill Gates & Khan Academy).

You rarely, rarely, rarely hear about educational startups that are excellent, financially independent and successful. It CAN happen, but if you are planning to build a startup with that in mind, you will have a much harder time than if you raise cash and put education behind marketing, marketing, marketing....