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The Unexotic Underclass

miter.mit.edu

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Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#251

Post by cbd1984 »

innguest wrote: post #147
cbd1984 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some problems aren't best solved through technology, or through "people caring", but simply through better governance. And here you run up against a religious belief named "The Government Is The Problem", which is utterly intractable and ineradicable in someone with an advanced case, and will never die off because it's founded on either blatant self-interest (A regulatory body is harming my profits!) or soured opti…

I'm a "believer" in TGITP as you say it. It is not based on "blatant self-interest" but on moral principles (don't harm people, don't take their stuff, etc). Keep in mind what you're doing with that message is trying to discredit a whole school of thought by throwing ad hominem arguments. You are saying those like me have an advanced case of a cultish disease, and that we are selfish and cynical. You're entitled to t…

> I'm a "believer" in TGITP as you say it. It is not based on "blatant self-interest" but on moral principles (don't harm people, don't take their stuff, etc).

So how does that work when the government is the one preventing people from hurting people and taking their stuff?

How does that square with the fact you can hurt people and deprive them of things without doing the kind of stuff NAP fundamentalists rail against, if you've rigged the game in your favor? If I own the only employer in town, and I don't like your face, you're going to be pretty damned deprived unless you magically work up the wherewithal to move.

> You're distracting and not helping the discussion.

There is no discussion with the people I'm describing. They're utterly dogmatic and will ignore or twist anything you tell them so their worldview isn't challenged.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#253

Post by crpatino »

tinco wrote: post #116
gambiting wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get the money from them, that's the point. You build a system that helps them,and then sell it to the government or any organisation which has the money to pay for it. You get your money, and they get the help they need.

What do the government or organisations which have the money get out of it?

According to previous thread, paid positions in the board of the contractor company.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#254

Post by innguest »

cbd1984 wrote: post #251
innguest wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a "believer" in TGITP as you say it. It is not based on "blatant self-interest" but on moral principles (don't harm people, don't take their stuff, etc). Keep in mind what you're doing with that message is trying to discredit a whole school of thought by throwing ad hominem arguments. You are saying those like me have an advanced case of a cultish disease, and that we are selfish and cynical. You're entitled to t…

> I'm a "believer" in TGITP as you say it. It is not based on "blatant self-interest" but on moral principles (don't harm people, don't take their stuff, etc). So how does that work when the government is the one preventing people from hurting people and taking their stuff? How does that square with the fact you can hurt people and deprive them of things without doing the kind of stuff NAP fundamentalists rail agains…

"The government is preventing people from hurting people" is not a binary assertion, but a spectrum. An agency can have a success rate of 20% at preventing violence (in which case they are lousy at it) or they can have a 70% or 80% rate or higher and so on. So sure, the government is preventing people from hurting people at some particular rate. Your question is, how can we make sure people don't hurt other people if there's no government. Well, let's say we all live in this city. Do we want a police force? If we do, we can fund one and have it. Then it will protect us. Same as current taxes for police forces, only at local level. It's no different than having tinier countries. Switzerland is tiny and peaceful and they have a police force but they also have everyone armed and so everyone can help protect others that may be being harmed. And in general you will see less people being harmed if everyone is able to help.

Now on to your example. You're the only employer in town. Maybe you even own the land where people live, just to make it more challenging. Now you can "exploit" people all you want by choosing not to employ someone you think is ugly or annoying, let's say. Well, let's say I'm ugly and you don't employ me. I'm ugly but I have friends. People know me and because I'm a nice guy they like me and are willing to help me. Several things can come from this. If everyone likes me then now we're all the more empowered as a town to go on strike and advocate that the company change their hiring policy. But let's say the town hates me, I'm a terrible person. I can try to redeem myself in the eyes of my town by providing services to my townsfolk, slowly building up enough savings to perhaps move out of town.

I've tried my best to honestly answer your questions. If I haven't addressed your core concerns I invite you to rephrase and we can try again. :)

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#255

Post by SkyMarshal »

tsunamifury wrote: post #236
tsunamifury wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't continue, partly because I had predetermined risk going into this (Strongly recommend a dollar figure in loss and time limit before you try helping society) and partly because I just burned out. Google reached out to me, and after a short interview made me an offer. My significant other and I are now officially 1%er DINKS over night and are constantly working on what it means to continue to do good in our…

My great worry is we are doing what our educated class always has done. We try to help, get scared off when we get too close, then retreat to our safe enclaves of high pay and social walls -- then close the door behind us. I feel so guilty about this it keeps me up at night. My only hope is that we can somehow continue to thrive, but keep the door open to anyone who wants to be a part of it.

I'm hoping that new, more effective and cost effective educational methods like Khan Academy and the like at least help keep that door open. Gotta get everyone internet access though.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#256

Post by NoPiece »

tormeh wrote: post #68
NoPiece wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how do people know to go to the edge of the supermarket when the government has been telling them, and schools have been teaching them go to the middle? This is the food pyramid the government was pushing from 1992-2005. You should have 6-11 servings of bread, rice, pasta, and cereal a day! It was red tape and ignorance that pushed people to the middle of the market. http://i.imgur.com/QtDfDAl.jpg

That's still not very bad advice. I'm guessing it would be a great improvement on the average lower class American diet. Cut out most of the fruit, fish and vegetables, increase sweets and meat and you've got the average modern lower class diet. Carbohydrates make you eat a bit more, but they're golden otherwise and they're really cheap. And if you look at the other categories it seems they use the word "serving" a b…

Obesity isn't confined to the lower class. Go to any Olive Garden and watch someone eat an "Endless Pasta" bowl (all you can eat if you are not an Olive Garden fan), white bread sticks, and diet coke. Low sugar, but still horrible. It is a trap to think of sugar differently than other simple carbohydrates in your diet.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#257

Post by prewett »

tsunamifury wrote: post #225
heironimus wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very well said. I greatly respect you for what you are doing/have been doing. It's obvious from your comments that you are not just talking nice, but have been there. I'm pretty sure no one has responded because no one knows how to respond to your bleak ending. Probably because it exposes our selfishness. I know I don't know what to say. Do you have any further info about the work you and your brother are doing/have…

I couldn't continue, partly because I had predetermined risk going into this (Strongly recommend a dollar figure in loss and time limit before you try helping society) and partly because I just burned out. Google reached out to me, and after a short interview made me an offer. My significant other and I are now officially 1%er DINKS over night and are constantly working on what it means to continue to do good in our…

I'd like to find out more about your brother's program. How does he find work for them? What are the key barriers to their finding and keeping effective employment? What are the important factors that contribute to the 0% recidivism he sees?

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#258

Post by rmc »

pjc50 wrote: post #148
julienwaterh wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jack Monroe has a political agenda behind her claims. Note that she voluntarily gave up a full time public-sector job (emergency services dispatcher) with a decent salary to go on benefits. Why does she have a child if she doesn't have the income to support them? Where is the father?

Are you seriously suggesting that she's starving herself and her child deliberately in order to score some sort of political point, and if so what point would that be? Details are slightly unclear because not everyone's employment and sexual history is on the internet for the benefit of their book reviewers, but it appears that the shiftwork required of the job made it extremely hard to find childcare, and the cost o…

I've no idea where the father is

She addresses this in a Guardian article:

> When I returned to work after maternity leave, my relationship broke down, and I found it impossible to cover the irregular night shifts 30 miles from home with any form of childcare. Childminders just don't work all night. Her son's father did and does look after him, but at the time it was impossible to match our work shifts up with friends, family and childcare to cover my working hours. Because he works too.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/01/richard...

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#259

Post by tsunamifury »

skybrian wrote: post #249
tsunamifury wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't continue, partly because I had predetermined risk going into this (Strongly recommend a dollar figure in loss and time limit before you try helping society) and partly because I just burned out. Google reached out to me, and after a short interview made me an offer. My significant other and I are now officially 1%er DINKS over night and are constantly working on what it means to continue to do good in our…

Unfortunately 40k per person isn't likely to get the attention of the someone trying to maximize the amount of good done per dollar (those of us who follow GiveWell) when the money would go further with the charities they currently recommend. The "exotic underclass" has the "advantage" if you can call it that of benefiting a lot from small amounts of money per person, so you can help more people. We need different ar…

It already costs the city 70k per person per year to go through a recovery program, this reduced it to 40k the first year then 0 the second year -- netting large municipal and state savings.

Re: The Unexotic Underclass

#260

Post by tsunamifury »

prewett wrote: post #257
tsunamifury wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't continue, partly because I had predetermined risk going into this (Strongly recommend a dollar figure in loss and time limit before you try helping society) and partly because I just burned out. Google reached out to me, and after a short interview made me an offer. My significant other and I are now officially 1%er DINKS over night and are constantly working on what it means to continue to do good in our…

I'd like to find out more about your brother's program. How does he find work for them? What are the key barriers to their finding and keeping effective employment? What are the important factors that contribute to the 0% recidivism he sees?

He starts his own small businesses and employs a set of ex-cons while mentoring them. He then turns management over to the most talented over the year, and finally hands the entire company over to the most senior person in the program. Meanwhile ownership is retained by the parent non-profit. He has done it three times and the key to low recidivism is his hands on approach. He spends time with every worker, has a magnetic personality, and is able to speak and inspire people who are at the very bottom.
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