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Email will last forever

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141–150 of 169 posts

Re: Email will last forever

#141

> The email protocol is simple and flexible. Ha, okay. I'm going to include actual emails in "the email protocol", because if you just count the network protocols you're not doing anything useful. Emails are anything but simple. They were born in the early days of the Internet, and no doubt time and the impossibility of predicting the future is responsible for how things turned out — but they are anything but simple.…

> Email messages are ASCII only. You can put non-ASCII characters into a header however. It looks like this: To me that is a good example of how email is flexible, and also simple. It's flexible because it could support non-ascii text strings, without changing a thing. It's simple because the protocol doesn't care what the subject says. It only cares that it's an ASCII string. That sounds like good engineering to me,…

Email is simple the way a plane is simple. As long as you don't see all the moving parts, and get to go along for the ride, it just seems like a magical flying tube!

I spent about 18 months on an email client project (was already 3 years in when I joined the team). I can tell you email is insane... so much more broken than you would expect (on all sides).

There is a reason many clients do "gmail" instead of "email". "Email" is a nasty barely functional ball of duct tape greased with WD-40 in the places it needs to go fast -- the fact that it works at all is breathtaking and only explained by the fact that it is one of the "killer features" of the internet.

The number of broken clients and servers is shocking and breathtaking. So you have to accept and expect bad data from everywhere. From the server directly, violating the imap spec, and in the body of the message violating all sanity. Yet, your users will see any failure as "this email client sucks" because the OTHER older email clients have already seen this idiocy and custom coded around it. Email clients end up being giant laundry lists of "if (act way 1)", "if created with (render 'right' way 2)"...

The reason new email clients are relatively slow to be created, and even fewer take off, is they are forced to deal with an insane clusterfuck of standards and corner cases to get to that 80% good enough mark -- or simply build out to one service at a time (we support gmail, hotmail and yahoo... etc).

There are 20+ RFCs you need to deal with the cover the spectrum of "basic" email with calendaring across a number of servers. That is just the "good" standard parts. On top of that you have the hundreds of server oddities that you need to handle else your email client will fail to get email off broken server X. Add to that the hundreds of rendering special cases you need to be aware of (ohh, this game from old outlook, so X means Y).

After you do all that, you have to deal with spam (both how servers tell you about it, how you show it, how you maintain it, etc) and an entire new set of oddities (very similar but simpler) for sending mail.

FastMail has an idea floating around that appears less terrible: http://jmap.io/ -- but I am blissfully out of that industry and simply don't care anymore.

EDIT: For the record, I agree with the article, email will be around for a long time, it is the "point of record" -- many of the "email killers" require your email address to sign up... so...

Re: Email will last forever

#142
post #106
post #2

The fact "email will last forever" is precisely why I believe it is absolutely the best protocol to build automatic services to access and share personal information. I have spoken about it here: http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=76 Edit: Someone1234: you don't need to wait for companies to support my proposal. It already works today with Gmail: try my live demo on pm33at@gmail.com - it works by leveraging standard auto-res…

That sounds like a really cool idea. Have you submitted it here? Got me thinking of pluses and minuses, and ways to bootstrap. Probably somebody would have to put up a free email service that implemented these hidden auto-replies, and maybe submit some pull requests to open-source projects to use it. Maybe Android and iPhone apps for the service that handled the phone info side. Sounds a bit big for an individual sid…

Seconded. This is a great idea, please submit it here for discussion.

Re: Email will last forever

#143
Dude, if IE6 is still around, there's not chance email is going out of business any time soon. Period. However, with the rising of new communication channels, we might get better at communicating certain pieces of information over time, that's what it's all about, anyway.

Re: Email will last forever

#144
Any argument around "Email" should first define what email is. Does the author mean SMTP will last forever? MIME? IMAP? Email is a way of sending a message using a number of old, insecure and inefficient protocols. Will better alternatives to these protocols gain traction one day? Most definitely. What will remain of "Email" as we know it today is the addressing scheme IMO. The universally acceptable way of messaging a user@any-host is the real power of email, and will remain for the foreseeable future whilst transport and encoding protocols come and go (eg VoIP succeeding PSTN). In fact, email should last as long as the DNS system exists, given that the addressing system is directly tied to it. Being a flexible P2P messaging system, email can be easily extended to provide features of any "email-killer" app out there (including realtime communication) if need be. These innovations haven't happened simply because major email server providers dominate their existing markets (Exchange!) and have little incentive to innovate given the high barrier to entry for startups selling email servers to corporates. Email clients have seen more innovation, but there's only so much a client can do to extend capabilities of email.

plug: for this reason we're developing a full-stack email service in Node comprising client and server apps (end plug)

Re: Email will last forever

#145
post #103
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But on the other hand, its still (against all reason) too hard to actually do anything with such massive archives unless you really prepare for it .. like you, I have more than 15 years of email collected over the decades, but actually being able to do something productive with it depends on just how much time I want to spend setting up a system that can handle the mbox files of the 80's, the Eudora archives of…

And the reality is that there's a vanishingly small percentage of that archived email that is of any use to you or anyone else. I don't have anything before about 2001 for reasons of isolated proprietary mail systems (e.g. minicomputer-based), disk failures, or just not making the effort to archive. I do have about the next 10 years saved but it's sitting in Outlook on a retired Windows system I keep around for such…

Mozilla had a pretty decent Outlook converter for a while.

The other way to convert it was to forward it to another system.

Among the reasons I've vastly preferred Maildir / mbox mail formats (even allowing for mbox's brokenness).

Re: Email will last forever

#146
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a really cool idea. Have you submitted it here? Got me thinking of pluses and minuses, and ways to bootstrap. Probably somebody would have to put up a free email service that implemented these hidden auto-replies, and maybe submit some pull requests to open-source projects to use it. Maybe Android and iPhone apps for the service that handled the phone info side. Sounds a bit big for an individual sid…

Seconded. This is a great idea, please submit it here for discussion.

Alright, I submitted it again:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8263848

I had submitted it twice before, but it got few upvotes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8157645 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8030337 It is hard to find a short title that succinctly describes the concept.

ufmace: I think writing a browser extension that configures filters + auto-responders on some popular webmails (Gmail, Hotmail, etc) would work best to entice users to adopt the technology. As I explained, many webmails already have all the necessary features to implement the concept (see FAQ 1 at http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=76). Also, writing a smartphone app to do the same for mobile users would help. There is really no need to launch and run a full-blown webmail service.

Re: Email will last forever

#147
post #2

The fact "email will last forever" is precisely why I believe it is absolutely the best protocol to build automatic services to access and share personal information. I have spoken about it here: http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=76 Edit: Someone1234: you don't need to wait for companies to support my proposal. It already works today with Gmail: try my live demo on pm33at@gmail.com - it works by leveraging standard auto-res…

I tried emailing that address and didn't get a reply. But I think that could be a rather cool idea - something like REST over SMTP? Know a single email address, send it a blank email get back and kick off the whole HATEOS process - which actually might more sense for something like this rather than over HTTP.

Put "autoresponder:online_identity" in the subject, you will get a reply.

I do like the blank email + HATEOAS idea.

Re: Email will last forever

#148
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seconded. This is a great idea, please submit it here for discussion.

Alright, I submitted it again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8263848 I had submitted it twice before, but it got few upvotes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8157645 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8030337 It is hard to find a short title that succinctly describes the concept. ufmace: I think writing a browser extension that configures filters + auto-responders on some popular webmails (Gmail, Ho…

I upvoted it, though I feel the pain on getting upvotes and reads on here. I think the last article I wrote got more upvotes on Lobsters than here. You gotta get just the right title at the right time, or it slides off the front page before anybody sees it.

I'm not sure what the best way to get going is. A webmail service dedicated to it would get the best UI, but there's the overhead of getting a webmail service with competitive features to Gmail, Yahoo, etc going and keeping it running. Or you could do a plugin or something, where it might be a challenge to put together a good UI and keep it in sync with Gmail's updates.

Re: Email will last forever

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your reasons, but it's interesting to consider that realtime IM is one area that, while there exists a standard, simple, and scalable protocol that's been around for a long time - IRC - it's nowhere near as popular as the proprietary alternatives that followed. IRC usage is declining, and of the people I know, the majority have never heard of it. Yet almost everyone knows about email, AIM, MSN Messenger,…

There's IM the one-to-one communication, and there's IM the multi-user chat. Those are two different concepts, they have their own mechanics of working and are treated differently by society. But since you brought it up, let's talk about IRC. I'm betting its lack of widespread success is because of the general UX combined with some historical mishaps. There are things you need to think about when IRCing, like: - serv…

Relay.js is a user friendly IRC client, see http://relayjs.jit.su/ for a demo. Converse.js (https://conversejs.org/) is an XMPP web client that supports XMPP conference rooms. So I'd say we already have good, nice-looking clients and there's room for improving integration on a single service to reach for the masses.

Re: Email will last forever

#150
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vinyl was physical. As were cassettes, envelopes, postcards etc. Email has one thing going for it that other platforms similarly didn't offer : It's the first personalised, and therefore recognisable, addressing system for an intangible communications platform that's still largely open (Ex: Unlike twitter et al. which has severely limited means of communication and, more importantly, what I can communicate). I submit…

It would be interesting to see an alternative to Twitter that is as open as email is. eg: A microblogging system that is built on open standards in a distributed and federated way. Where no-one owns the platform and protocols. In the beginning of the internet a bunch of open system emerged: Email, IRC, DNS, ... Nowadays it's mostly businesses that launch proprietary solutions to make $$$. What has changed since those…

There are tons of open source alternatives based on standard protocols:

* https://jappix.com/ Jappix (XMPP)

* http://gnu.io/social/ GNU social (statusnet/pump)

* http://twister.net.co/ Twister (p2p microblogging)

* http://redmatrix.me/&JS=1 Red Matrix

The thing is: noone uses them.

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