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Lost Lessons from 8-Bit BASIC

prog21.dadgum.com

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Re: Lost Lessons from 8-Bit BASIC

#81
post #2

There is one more important thing here: the 8 bit computer immediately invited you to start coding. The barrier to entry was incredibly low to the point of nonexistent. Compare this to a laptop today or even worse a tablet. I very strongly believe that perpetuating a "code me!" mindset vs the "consume me!" mindset has really big consequences. The ability to make your computer do something that you can do something wi…

Even the IBM PC and XT had BASIC in ROM, which worked much the same way; and it also came with a complete set of schematics and the source code of the BIOS (I don't think the source for ROM BASIC was included, since it was licensed from Microsoft.) While it wasn't truly "open source" in the legal sense and was still copyrighted, it gave users a chance to learn how their machines worked all the way down to the hardwar…

> the idea that users shouldn't be developers has lead to a situation in which access to development tools and information are seemingly treated as a privilege instead of a right

Unfortunately, a lot of people have been starting the War On General Purpose Computing[1] for a while now.

While many people saw Doctorow's first talk[1] on the War On General Purpose computing, his sequel talk[2] about the upcoming Civil-War On General Purpose Computing is one of the most important talks I've ever seen.

The talk is about exactly this point: Turing completeness scares various traditional powers (and some new/upcoming powers), and their instinct is to lash out and try to mandate that someone make a computer that can't run the various programs that scare them. Not understanding what "Turing Complete" means, they end up in a cycle that tries to blacklist anything that allows these scary programs to be written and used. Hiding the dev tools is just one step on a path that - by definition - must end up with the hobbling of computing devices until they are no longer Turing complete.

This problem needs to be fought right now, in a big way. The non-technical population is just starting to understand the full impact of what it means to have a General Purpose Computer, and we are only seeing the first skirmishes. The 2nd talk I mentioned above by Doctorow[2] - which I very strongly recommend that everybody watch - points out how modern concerns over "dev tools" (or "copyright") are trivial. We need to start the fight now, because it will be a lot more important when the War moves into areas such as medical devices or self-driving cars. We are already seeing the War start to affect areas like property rights and "first sale"; just wait until someone gets sued for publishing a fixed firmware for some company's buggy medical device.

Teaching the next generation from an early age about computers is an important part of the fight to preserve General Purpose Computers, and by promoting "learning by exploring" so kids of the future can learn like we did on older devices would help a lot, at least in the long-run.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUEvRyemKSg

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nypRYpVKc5Y

Re: Lost Lessons from 8-Bit BASIC

#82
post #80
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Bash shell is an command line interpreter. Bash is Turing complete and even supports more advanced programming paradigms than those early BASIC machines did (eg functions, different scoping, more advanced debugging and error handling, forking, etc). This is all just built in commands - I'm not including any other POSIX user land. In the right hands, Bash is every bit as much a REPL environment as an interactive Pyt…

It depended upon the BASIC version, but the one you got on an IBM PC (the one embedded in the BIOS, usually only on PCs from IBM) was an odd cross between an editor and a REPL. Start out: PRINT "HELLO WORLD" Press ENTER, and you get "HELLO WORLD" on the next line. Okay. Move the cursor up to the PRINT, hit the Insert key, type "10" then ENTER. You have now just entered a line into your program. Type LIST and you see…

You can do that with Bash (albeit not with line numbers).

But as I said before, there were other languages available for said machines and those had their editors as well. What you're describing isn't a unique attribute to BASIC.

Re: Lost Lessons from 8-Bit BASIC

#83
post #76
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On those early consumer 8-bits, the command shell WAS the BASIC interpreter. You turned the computer on and you were right there in the BASIC environment! You couldn't do anything without typing in BASIC commands. Your other points are OK, but it really wasn't like a Bash shell. An interactive Python command-line is closer, but it's still a stretch.

A Bash shell is an command line interpreter. Bash is Turing complete and even supports more advanced programming paradigms than those early BASIC machines did (eg functions, different scoping, more advanced debugging and error handling, forking, etc). This is all just built in commands - I'm not including any other POSIX user land. In the right hands, Bash is every bit as much a REPL environment as an interactive Pyt…

I considered saying the same thing about bash, but its really missing a big portion of what made BASIC exciting on those machines. That is the ability to draw graphics. Some of the other scripting languages with Tk linking might count though.

Frankly, I'm convinced javascript is the modern equivalent to BASIC. It is even complete with some horrible brain rotting syntax. But, it does provide both an easy barrier to entry (everyone has a web browser), the ability to show your results to others, and the fact that it remains in source form allows beginners to examine how something was achieved.

Re: Lost Lessons from 8-Bit BASIC

#84
post #22
post #2

There is one more important thing here: the 8 bit computer immediately invited you to start coding. The barrier to entry was incredibly low to the point of nonexistent. Compare this to a laptop today or even worse a tablet. I very strongly believe that perpetuating a "code me!" mindset vs the "consume me!" mindset has really big consequences. The ability to make your computer do something that you can do something wi…

Earlier the barrier was the high price of a computer. Today the barrier is that you have to specialize you more. But on the other side you have more tools, more ressources (the internet), more help, more tutorials, ....

and for kids it is much easier to go off and watch youtube after getting bored while looking for tutorials. I guess the charm and mysticism of machines are also gone to the children of today.

Re: Lost Lessons from 8-Bit BASIC

#85
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also see "Why Johnny can't code" by David Brin: http://www.salon.com/2006/09/14/basic_2/

I have a lot of respect for Brin, but it's amazing how wrong that piece is. There's more code being written now than ever before, not just by kids but by all kinds of everyone. There's an entire sub-culture of collaborative development - github, etc - which would have been impossible with 8-bit micro technology. Away from that, a lot of non-devs have hacked together simple VBA/AppleScripts. And not a few people with…

Your statement: that more code is being written now is mostly due to the fact that there are many more machines. The population of people that have access to computers is much larger now.

If you go back to the 80s, I would wager that the percentage of people that coded (or even dabbled in code) was higher than it is now.

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