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Email will last forever

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Re: Email will last forever

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Impersonal" was only ever a label applied to email by people who didn't yet have access to the Internet, jealous they were being excluded. This is factually incorrect. Everone I've ever heard use the term to describe email had internet access and was a regular email user at the time they used the term. I'm sure some people who didn't have email have used the term, and I'm sure some of those people had the motivati…

You say something is factually incorrect based on your own experiences, then comment on subjectivity? Are you being serious, or kidding? I honestly can't tell.

> You say something is factually incorrect based on your own experiences

Well, yes, a categorical claim that something was "only ever" used by people with certain objective features and for a particular reason is factually incorrect if it was ever used by people without those features or for a different reason, so personal experience, while inadequate to establish that it is factually correct, can be quite sufficient to establish that it is factually incorrect.

(You'll note that while I state that the categorical claim is clearly factually incorrect, that it is also quite likely that, while not a categorical truth, there have been at least some dismissals that fit the pattern that it falsely claims is the exclusive pattern for all dismissals of email as "impersonal" -- the error isn't in saying that some people describe email as impersonal for the particular reason described, but in claiming that that is the only reason email has ever been described as "impersonal" by anyone.)

> then comment on subjectivity

The comment on subjectivity was on a different statement (a claim of what is superior and what matters, both of which are inherently subjective) not the categorical fact claim. Recognizing the difference between subjective statements and fact claims is pretty important to being able to participate in a productive discussion of pretty much any topic, IMO.

> Are you being serious, or kidding?

The former.

Re: Email will last forever

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Impersonal" was only ever a label applied to email by people who didn't yet have access to the Internet, jealous they were being excluded. This is factually incorrect. Everone I've ever heard use the term to describe email had internet access and was a regular email user at the time they used the term. I'm sure some people who didn't have email have used the term, and I'm sure some of those people had the motivati…

You say something is factually incorrect based on your own experiences, then comment on subjectivity? Are you being serious, or kidding? I honestly can't tell.

[deleted]

Re: Email will last forever

#53
post #9

No one mentions portability, but I believe it is a wonderful property of email - I have more than 15 years of email, moved across various servers and clients on various operating systems and it is still available and functional. What other personal communication channel is that resilient to technological change ?

Whitfield Diffie (yes, of Diffie-Hellman), just posted to the IP list an email he pulled up from 1976(!) in response to a crappy article about VA Shiva Ayyadura "inventing" email. I'm sure he's got even older emails, but the fact that he had it, was able to easily find it, and then resend it with a descendant of itself 38 years later is pretty amazing to me!

" A quick look at my files finds messages from from 1976 that use that format:

  29-SEP-76  1935 FTP:CERF at USC-ISI Data Communication Conference/ Sept 1977
  Date: 29 SEP 1976 1802-PDT
  From: CERF at USC-ISI
  Subject: Data Communication Conference/ Sept 1977
  To:   walker
  cc:   cerf, wd at SU-AI

  22-AUG-76  0857 FTP:LEFAIVRE at RUTGERS-10 MORE ON THE LISP COMPILER
  Date: 22 Aug 1976 (Sunday) 1155-Est
  From: LEFAIVRE at RUTGERS-10
  Subject: MORE ON THE LISP COMPILER
  To:   DIFFIE at SU-AI

so I don't see how this can be novel in 1978.

                   Whit
"

Re: Email will last forever

#54

I find it interesting to contrast 'forever' with another technology that will last forever 'vinyl records'. I expect there will always be point to point, store and forward communication channels, but those channels have existed for millenia, from travelers who stacked rocks to tell those who came after where the trail was, to people who send compromising photos of themselves across cellular networks. So if we set asi…

Vinyl was physical. As were cassettes, envelopes, postcards etc.

Email has one thing going for it that other platforms similarly didn't offer : It's the first personalised, and therefore recognisable, addressing system for an intangible communications platform that's still largely open (Ex: Unlike twitter et al. which has severely limited means of communication and, more importantly, what I can communicate).

I submit that we don't have an equivalent that's evenly matched and so no basis yet to compare it to. That's not to say there won't be one in the future, but I don't see anything close to matching it today or on the horizon.

Re: Email will last forever

#55
There are tools to make use of HTTP in all sorts of ways. Curl, Wget, Restful APIs, Sinatra, Grape, etc. Fast, flexible, lightweight.

Email - not so much. Want a local email server? There's Postfix - yuckkk. The overhead of spam - yuckk. The lack of tooling, the lack of configurability, the DNS complexity. The fact that it requires a SAAS to do shared inboxes. Yuck.

Email could be so much better.

Re: Email will last forever

#56
post #30
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A team inbox is almost always better handled by a ticketing system or a mailing list or both.

or Front :)

A brief look through Front suggests that it is a specialized ticketing system. I predict that, if successful, it will incorporate more traditional ticketing system features.

Re: Email will last forever

#57
Email is wonderful and terrible. SMTP is pretty simple, and everyone with a static IP can run their own email server. Configuring it requires some study, but it's not too hard.

OTOH creating email clients is hard. I wrote a web server and wanted a webmail client. Basic SMPT messaging is straightforward enough, but MIME is a confusing tangle of protocols and rules that is difficult to understand and implement correctly.

I mostly succeeded but it took a long time. Part of the problem is the complexity means protocols are often violated and my webmail client has to deal with loads of exceptions to protocol rules to work in the real world.

But that's hardly limited to email. Look at http, it has arcane rules too, and some of the common security issues on the net are the result of "sloppily" implementing programs using http. (You know, XSS attacks, SQL injections and so on.)

Email has warts but what doesn't. Certainly email "replacements" will have warts too, especially as they are extended to cover the breadth that email has encompassed.

Re: Email will last forever

#58

I find it interesting to contrast 'forever' with another technology that will last forever 'vinyl records'. I expect there will always be point to point, store and forward communication channels, but those channels have existed for millenia, from travelers who stacked rocks to tell those who came after where the trail was, to people who send compromising photos of themselves across cellular networks. So if we set asi…

I would agree that emails are not suitable for some use cases. Many to many updates on many projects, as you pointed out, is one that email is not a suitable medium. However, I don't see that particular use case as significant by the normal Internet users, rather an enterprise problem. The fact that emails have used for that just shows its robustness and popularity (hey it's good enough and all the people I need to connect with have it, so why not just using it?)

I don't think your analogy with vinyl records app as emails are actually the electronic version of the communication method human have been using for hundreds (if not thousands) of years: mails. People know exactly how to use email and what exactly do they expect from emails: - to send an email, you need an address - to receive emails, you need a mail box - once you hit send, you don't have control on the emails anymore, some thing (or post office workers) have control of it - you don't expect to get a reply right away, that lowers your expectation of an instant reply - a lot of emails are replies, which means there is a strong context which is what was said in the previous emails

There are many other good things with email such as the openness, federated and robustness nature of the underlying technologies. However, just from the end users perspectives, it matches perfectly with a communication model that most humans have used and understood for many years, and one that doesn't go away very soon.

Re: Email will last forever

#59

I find it interesting to contrast 'forever' with another technology that will last forever 'vinyl records'. I expect there will always be point to point, store and forward communication channels, but those channels have existed for millenia, from travelers who stacked rocks to tell those who came after where the trail was, to people who send compromising photos of themselves across cellular networks. So if we set asi…

I agree with the author's premise.

Email is the ultimate "killer app" you can digitally deliver anything to anyone via email, and many folks use it for all sorts of different processes and purposes. Solutions that claim to displace email don't really displace email -- they displace common use cases that were handled ad hoc using email as a lowest common denominator. Most of these use cases cry out for a more structured solution.

For example, There are 1,000 services that displace emailing pictures to each other. There is probably an order of magnitude more services for managing tasks, approving things, exchanging quick exchanges, or performing any number of other tasks.

But at the end of the day, for the core function of email -- unstructured written communication, email is the king.

Re: Email will last forever

#60
post #32

The concept of email is too fuzzy. Is it SMTP that will last forever? This technology is more like sending postcards that every middleman can read. Certainly a more private alternative will replace it someday, and it should be more spam-proof. Also email serves many purposes. If it is to be replaced, it will be on a use-case by use-case manner. RSS is a better alternative to one-to-many mailing lists. Forums are a be…

Encrypted SMTP is already in widespread use. Many MTA's already receive and deliver email over secure channels, and email clients (e.g. Outlook) have supported secure channels for a long time.
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