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Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

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Re: Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

#11
Blogging Is Really About Whining.

There seems to be a segment of the programming society that's just content with spewing whinage about not being able to get what they want, instead of using what they find and improving it to fit their needs.

I am no Python programmer, but i have looked at twisted and found it trivial to grok. I saw how they have wrapped the Unix system calls and put a layer of abstraction over it .. I didn't like it, and went back to using Common Lisp's iolib. I must have missed an opportunity to blog there :-(

Re: Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

#12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

I'd rather struggle with difficulty of concept than difficulty in finding information.

What self-respecting programmer doesn't idle in the freenode channels of the software packages he or she is learning? You immerse yourself in the community and ask intelligent questions; if anything, just to see what the community is like before you commit your project to depend on something written by either douchebags or morons.

I did just that with the twisted community and I found them a good bunch.

Re: Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

#13
Well, I think when friendfeed developers were writing tornado they didn't mean to opensource it or even talk about it in public, so they went for the name "Tornado".

I agree that documentation is really important in Open Source, and so is finding the documentation. Googling for such a generic names makes things hard. Considering all the hype Tornado got recently the homepage is not still listed in the first 5 pages of Google's results for "Tornado".

So I think it's a good advice to think twice (or thrice) before naming your next project.

Re: Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

#14
I'm sorry, but http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/Documentation is the documentation, where I started and it shows nice examples, a high level introduction -- everything needed to dive in. Actually I learned a whole lot back in the days when I had to use this fine documentation.

Re: Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

#15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather struggle with difficulty of concept than difficulty in finding information.

What self-respecting programmer doesn't idle in the freenode channels of the software packages he or she is learning? You immerse yourself in the community and ask intelligent questions; if anything, just to see what the community is like before you commit your project to depend on something written by either douchebags or morons. I did just that with the twisted community and I found them a good bunch.

You're on to something about community. A healthy OSS project has a healthy community. Maintaining a painless ramp-up with thoroughly organized documentation goes a long way towards nurturing an expansive, and inclusive community. By expansive and inclusive community, I do indeed mean that copy+paste jockeys can hack their way through it. If copypasters can get something done, then usually it means the defaults are usable, the common use-cases demonstrated, and the examples are up-to-date. When all of those conditions are met, it also means that the inertia to just trying something out is WAY less, and the interest:effort in just "screwing around" with it is now much better, which is the first step in getting some programmers (like me) to give something a try.

If I needed what twisted had to offer, I'd give it a try. But if I'm just screwing around (an exploratory phase that sometimes leads to much deeper commitment) then I'm going to go with whatever is easiest that seems to have sufficient depth.

Anyway, I have plenty of self-respect, thank you. I am sure there are others like me.

edit:textarea != vim

Re: Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

#16
post #11

Blogging Is Really About Whining. There seems to be a segment of the programming society that's just content with spewing whinage about not being able to get what they want, instead of using what they find and improving it to fit their needs. I am no Python programmer, but i have looked at twisted and found it trivial to grok. I saw how they have wrapped the Unix system calls and put a layer of abstraction over it ..…

I think you're taking a reductionist view, and I think you've missed the point the author was making. The author first expressed his understanding of the influences on individual behavior and then he made specific suggestions (with examples) of how twisted had failed to optimize for a specific outcome within that framework.

I consider this analysis and feedback, not whining.

You seem to suggest that the author is whining in lieu of being self-sufficient. I can't speak for the author, so I will just speak for myself. I wholeheartedly believe in the self-sufficiency that programming culture promotes. However, I also believe that the easier you make it for others to achieve self-sufficiency in your open-source library, the more successful it will be.

I'm happy that you found it trivial to drink deeply of twisted's essence. I also think that you are right that you have an opportunity to blog! I for one would love to read about why you think that CL's iolib is a better abstraction layer than twisted. You haven't missed the opportunity -- I'd upvote that over most of the stuff on the front page!

Re: Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

#17
post #2

As usual, a simple "this versus that" comparison is only useful as an intellectual exercise. Tornado is a web framework, in many ways closer to Django than Twisted. Beyond that the underlying approaches are different - Tornado does not use deferreds. There are a number of great projects that use Twisted. Soon many new projects will use Tornado. But the frameworks' respective documentation does not tell the story.

> Tornado is a web framework

Not really. It's the combination of an asynchronous HTTP server and an optional web framework. And work is being done [to add WSGI support](http://github.com/facebook/tornado/commit/8ca616088cfb26ff19...) so other frameworks can be plugged into the server.

At its core, Tornado is a server not a framework.

Re: Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

#18
I don't think the "documentation sucks" can be used to model very well the issue, there is another very important thing: is it simple to use, and the base case is obvious, or is it over engineered? I think in the Twisted / Tornado issue there is some of this elements too.

A lot of libs around here are, technically speaking, well coded, reliable, fast. But the API sucks. An example is the libpng, if you have some experience with it you'll understand. When an alternative with a clean API arise it's very hard to resist.

Re: Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

#19
Just remember MySQL - its success was about documentation (the most), community (as a result) and some PR.

It is so strange to create reusable components without detailed guides.

The nginx had this very problem. If it could get a user-friendly documentation it will earn more adoptions.

Re: Open Source Is Really About Documentation – Twisted vs. Tornado

#20
post #3

I have built several twisted apps which are in use in production environments, including web and jabber/xmpp apps. I love twisted, and use it whenever possible... ...and I agree completely with the op. Twisted is powerful, flexible, well architected, and reliable. It is also damn near impossible to get over the steep learning curve and to actually USE it. Show me a competent Twisted developer, and I'll show you someo…

http://twistedmatrix.com/projects/core/documentation/howto/t...

What's wrong with that? Seems quite comprehensible to me...

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