From the startup who allegedly stole software and raised $2M with it • Hacker News Board

Re: From the startup who allegedly stole software and raised $2M with it

#111

Post by _delirium » Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 10:55 PM UTC

disbelief wrote: post #108

dleskov wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My limited experience of disputing a PayPal transaction was exactly the opposite (i.e. I was the buyer).

My extensive experience of being a PayPal seller is quite the contrary. People request a charge back, PayPal "encourages" them to contact you, which essentially is just an extra step in the charge back process that they can skip, then nearly every time the money is returned with nothing the seller can do about it.

Afaict it depends on the kind of transaction. For services PayPal is very buyer-friendly. The main area in which I've consistently heard of buyers unhappy that PayPal sides with the seller is with purchases of physical items. It seems like PayPal accepts any kind of proof-of-shipment as conclusive in those cases. If the seller can show a tracking code with proof of delivery, PayPal closes the dispute in favor of the seller. This ends up making it easy for sellers to ship severely subpar goods (e.g. relabeling used things as new), and even carry out outright scams like shipping an empty box full of packing peanuts, or shipping a cheap compact camera to fulfill a high-end sale.

Re: From the startup who allegedly stole software and raised $2M with it

#112

Post by rlucas » Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 7:15 PM UTC

balabaster wrote: post #95

jasonkester wrote: post #2

I think you're going to have a hard time here trying to convince a developer community that a "refund" is something a client is entitled to in a work for hire situation. You ask a developer to do work for you, they do the requested work, and you pay them. If you don't like the work, you end the relationship. But you still have to pay them for their time. I don't envy the next few weeks for you guys, but you definitel…

From the contractor point of view, dragging the corporation's name through the mud isn't going to serve any purpose and can be used against you in court. While I don't necessarily side with Pigeon.ly, and emotionally, I'm on-side with the developer for calling them out, doing so just started a smear campaign on both sides. This isn't cool. Smearing someone's name is bad behaviour all around. I don't care whether a cl…

Terrible, awful legal pseudo-advice about DMCA and "ownership." Do not fall for this, devs.

There is a very strong chance that a payment dispute will legally be viewed as just that -- a matter to be solved by negotiation and perhaps a monetary judgment. The rest of the contract will all still stand, likely including any copyright assignment, work for hire, etc.

Trying to DMCA someone who hasn't paid an invoice is a chump move that has a very real chance of winding you up with a bad faith or tortious interference response, or worse.

A contract dev doing 25k worth of work should generally not be lawyering up, unless there's a major non cash component (eg equity in the project). If you don't trust the counterparts keep them on a tight leash for invoicing meaning get paid often and don't build up a receivable. But spending a thousand bucks on a lawyer and trying to get a company who probably actually does have "standard" paper and very good reason to want to stick with it, to customize their docs for your tiny one off deal is a rookie move and a waste of time and dough.

The stuff you say about keeping an evidence chain of work and commits etc... That's spot on. But the reason it's spot on is that it's just good business.

Re: From the startup who allegedly stole software and raised $2M with it

#113

Post by JackK » Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 7:58 PM UTC

jparkside wrote: post #107

seren wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That post claimed that Pigeon.ly is using stolen code to run their product, while Pigeon.ly claims they are not using the code in their product. Does it really makes a difference if the code is currently running or not? Let's say, hypothetically, the code was not production ready but used in an alpha version to pitch an investor ? It is impossible to prove one way or another, but I wonder, if you could sue someone,…

This is Frederick, I can speak to our specific case. The code the original poster provided to us was never used in investor presentations. We rebuilt the product from scratch almost a year before we had any real traction or investor meetings.

You've just asked for a colonoscopy.

Don't let the title of this link ("Discovering Python") fool you. It's about the sort of case you've set yourself up for by not paying this guy in full. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ4Sn-Y7AP8

...and that's just the court case.

I'd be really surprised if the due diligence requirements of your funding contracts won't also require a similar discovery process to prove that not even a single line of code or hint of design work can be traced back to the original developer.

Not paying this guy risks your losing what you're thinking of as "committed" funding due to the loopholes in your funding contracts that likely protect the funders by requiring you to expose your code and that of the original coder to the funders' technical experts at your expense (as a part of the contractually-required "due diligence"), delaying your actually receiving further funding for at least the duration of the discovery process, but possibly forever, if the funder judges there might be a risk.

It also doesn't help that you originally advertized this work as a job in California, complete with "join our team" language. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NcKW-lnlOMSEzBEj7ywPF5nN.... Whatever contract language you are relying on to protect you in a labor contract dispute over monies owed for work performed is likely superseded by California labor law, something your funders are also likely aware of, and would likely consider a risk to their $$$.

Finally, don't you have enough stigma to deal with being a start-up (notoriously flaky), then adding the stigma of being an ex-con (notoriously untrustworthy), without adding the stigma of stiffing the coder you hired on contract (three strikes), practically cementing your start-up's status as among those most deserving to fail?

Re: From the startup who allegedly stole software and raised $2M with it

#114

Post by balabaster » Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 2:33 PM UTC

rlucas wrote: post #112

balabaster wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the contractor point of view, dragging the corporation's name through the mud isn't going to serve any purpose and can be used against you in court. While I don't necessarily side with Pigeon.ly, and emotionally, I'm on-side with the developer for calling them out, doing so just started a smear campaign on both sides. This isn't cool. Smearing someone's name is bad behaviour all around. I don't care whether a cl…

Terrible, awful legal pseudo-advice about DMCA and "ownership." Do not fall for this, devs. There is a very strong chance that a payment dispute will legally be viewed as just that -- a matter to be solved by negotiation and perhaps a monetary judgment. The rest of the contract will all still stand, likely including any copyright assignment, work for hire, etc. Trying to DMCA someone who hasn't paid an invoice is a c…

This was advice given to me by a contract and intellectual property lawyer. Take it as you will.

I've been in this business 25 years and I've been around the block many times with many clients. One thing I've learned over the years is that there is no standard paper. All contracts are written to protect the person or entity that wrote them. Don't kid yourself, if you blindly sign them just because they're "standard paper", you're the fool.

...As for not "lawyering up", just because you're a contract developer with "only" (for example) $25,000 in unpaid receivables... it seems to me that only someone looking to avoid paying their bills by unfair tactics would make such statements... someone who would definitely put their "standard paper" and lawyers in the way of making said payments.