Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#61

Post by informatimago » Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 3:42 PM UTC

erik123 wrote: post #43

onion2k wrote: post #19

I believe it's largely down to short term goals versus long term goals. From the business perspective, the company should do things quickly because that means the jobs are more profitable, cashflow is stable, and the business team believe that they can always find more clients even if the product is horrible. This is the short term outlook. From the programmers perspective the company should do things slowly because…

Given the fact that all corruption starts with the corruption of language, you will quickly have a good idea of what someone's job is. In programming, contradictory ambitions are pointless, because machines won't work properly if you allow them. In business or politics, you don't face machines but other people. It is perfectly normal for a business person or a politician to hide the contradictions in what he says by…

Indeed. Check http://www.ribbonfarm.com/the-gervais-principle/

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#62

Post by holograham » Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 5:17 PM UTC

Misleading question since it implies that all programmers dont get along with business types.

Clearly a subset of programmers DO get along with business types after all most established companies have programmers working for business types. Similarly many startup founders are BOTH a programmer and a businessperson.

A better HN question IMO would be: How do programmers and business-types communicate better?

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#63

Post by holograham » Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 5:25 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #19

I believe it's largely down to short term goals versus long term goals. From the business perspective, the company should do things quickly because that means the jobs are more profitable, cashflow is stable, and the business team believe that they can always find more clients even if the product is horrible. This is the short term outlook. From the programmers perspective the company should do things slowly because…

I find this binary opinion flawed.

Programmers have short term and long term views. If you push a release out with a huge painful bug you will QUICKLY rush a fix out even if you go into technical debt to do so. Alternatively (good) programmers do have long term goals in maintainable and stable code bases to deliver consistent quality software to end users.

Likewise a business-type has short term goals -- quarterly earnings, quarterly service signups, business performance metrics, etc to investors/wall street. But alternatively must have long terms goals too to keep the business alive and growing. Investors do care immensely about quarterly results but they also care about long term results. No one will invest in a company that is likely to go bankrupt after the next quarter. IMO business folks get lambasted a little too much on their "short term" focus. Point me to a company that had a strong quarter than is likely to go bankrupt within a year or two (no hindsight comparisons). Business types are constantly balancing short vs long term goals and companies are constantly figuring out better incentive structures to reward business-types for that balance. Is it perfect? No. Are there exceptions? Yes. But it's what is happening every day in the business world.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#64

Post by richsin » Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 7:27 PM UTC

The relationship between technical and sales is always going to be complex.

A salesperson has to not only sell, but retain customers. It's their job, regardless of where the product is at. Customers are not easily acquired and the position is unforgiving.

As a hybrid sales/development guy, I was always conflicted selling products that I found myself having to convince users to stick with it on the renewal, because the product is not performing as it should or as promised. It was the technical side of me knowing this product is not really where it should be, just good enough.

And the clauses, yuck!, cancellation fees to end contracts, worst conversation to have with someone you're trying to build a relationship with. For anyone with a conscience, it's a hard position to be in but that's what you are being paid to do, sell. To survive you have to be at peace with the process and have a long term outlook that the product will get better.

It's crushing to have to sell a not so great product just as much as it is hard to push one out. I think what really makes the difference is the company culture and shared vision. If people are not ultimately working toward the same long term goal, there is going to be a disconnect.