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Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

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Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#41

Post by mooreds »

Huh? Working means getting along with different kinds of people.

I think that if you aren't getting along with a business person, it is incumbent on both of you to discover what the disconnect is. What are you each missing? Maybe it is an understanding of technical limitations on their part, or a blind spot about the business on yours.

Except in the case of ill will on someone's part, discussion between adults should resolve the problem. If there's ill will, that's a good job to leave.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#42

Post by simonswords82 »

I run a software house and work with programmers every day. I'm a business type person (I guess?) in that I'm the CEO, but I'm an ex-programmer, so I'm a weird hybrid of the two types of person you're trying to draw a line between.

I think the question you're asking leads us to look for reasons why ALL business people can't get on with ALL programmers, which is simply untrue. There's lots of business people around the world happily working with programmers, and I'm one of them.

For me a good programmer is not good just because they can rattle off reams of beautiful code and fix bugs insanely quickly. A good programmer must also be able to prioritise their work, manage their time, communicate effectively, understand the wider context of the work they do and much much more. These skills outside of their core skills I refer to as "soft skills", and they're necessary in all walks of life not just programming.

In the same way, a good business person is not a good business person just because they can run a business that makes money. To get along with their employees they will need to be able to delegate work, communicate effectively, plan ahead and so on. Again, these soft skills are just as important as the ability to make money.

So if a business man who is only good at making money works with a programmer who can rattle off code, and they lack the aforementioned soft skills...they're going to have a hard time working with one another. Equally, if either of the two individuals lacks soft skills, the relationship is going to suffer.

What's really interesting (in my experience) is that a rockstar programmer without soft skills isn't just going to struggle to get along with business type people, she's going to struggle to get along with everybody!

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#43

Post by erik123 »

onion2k wrote: post #19

I believe it's largely down to short term goals versus long term goals. From the business perspective, the company should do things quickly because that means the jobs are more profitable, cashflow is stable, and the business team believe that they can always find more clients even if the product is horrible. This is the short term outlook. From the programmers perspective the company should do things slowly because…

Given the fact that all corruption starts with the corruption of language, you will quickly have a good idea of what someone's job is. In programming, contradictory ambitions are pointless, because machines won't work properly if you allow them. In business or politics, you don't face machines but other people. It is perfectly normal for a business person or a politician to hide the contradictions in what he says by skillfully using and abusing meaningless words. The conflict between programmers and business people/politicians is that the latter are not aware of the fact that their contradictions may work absolutely fine in marketing or advertizing but that they will not fly if the field of software. Here a link to Orwell's "Politics and the English language": https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm. He is way more proficient than me at explaining what the problem is all about. By the way, this is the real reason why healthcare.gov from the get-go never had a snowball's chance in hell to go live for a reasonable budget and within the desired timeframe.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#44

Post by lukasm »

It comes down to 3 things: 1. Communication 2. Different incentives/goals 3. Modus operandi

@1 Tech people speak tech - no marketing bullshit. Business people often don't understand what programmers are saying and it causes the frustration. Mental models are skewed by marketing and sales.

@2 Programmers want to build things properly, use cool stuff and develop skills. Business guys want to meet their quarterly targets.

@3 Business people want to solve problems with money. A lot of problems cannot be solved that way. They have a internal voice whispering "reduce cost and increase revenue", but it doesn't say "technical debt".

PS This is not binary. Programmers can behave like business types and vice versa.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#45

Post by voidlogic »

kourt wrote: post #20
onion2k wrote: post #19

I believe it's largely down to short term goals versus long term goals. From the business perspective, the company should do things quickly because that means the jobs are more profitable, cashflow is stable, and the business team believe that they can always find more clients even if the product is horrible. This is the short term outlook. From the programmers perspective the company should do things slowly because…

bad code forever because your technical team get annoyed and leave And the effects of technical debt and bad code will eventually result in slow iteration and poor product quality which will eventually become visible to customers.

This x1000. I think that OPs sentence above was the only off part of their assessment, most was spot on.

When I was a consultant integrating niche specific 3rd party apps, where even the "major vendor" was often a pretty small operation. It was not uncommon to see this happen.

Slow releases, years of minor updates, with "the big update" always on the horizon. Inability to come out with a 64-bit version, etc. All very common and signs of poor project management, technical debt, or most likely, both.

Sometimes we would be resolving issues with their "support engineers" only to realize they had like 2 developers (one of which we were talking to) and a whole team of sales guys.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#46

Post by jeffasinger »

When I've seen problems before, it's usually due to a lack of mutual respect. Either you have the business people thinking of the programmers as relatively useless nerds who can't do anything right on their own, or you have the programmers thinking that the business people basically sit around and do nothing.

I've never seen any real problems if both sides realize and understand that what the other side is doing is important and not easy.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#47

Post by LBarret »

Looks at what they do, and you'll find the source of their biases.

A coder works with objects that are between math and infrastructure. From math, he gets the logical reasoning. From infrastructure, the long term need for solidity. A coder is also much product oriented.

Bizdev works with more fluid concepts (perception and human psychology) and focus more on the cash flow. Time is essential in business, a good product late rarely succeed.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#48

Post by simonswords82 »

zura wrote: post #30
onion2k wrote: post #19

I believe it's largely down to short term goals versus long term goals. From the business perspective, the company should do things quickly because that means the jobs are more profitable, cashflow is stable, and the business team believe that they can always find more clients even if the product is horrible. This is the short term outlook. From the programmers perspective the company should do things slowly because…

Also, programmers are usually "to the point" people, while business people love buzzwords.

I'm sure there are some business people who love buzzwords but surely you're not saying that ALL business people (anybody who runs a business) love buzzwords?

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#49

Post by cheery »

So why stereotypical programmer can't get along with stereotypical business person? That's because they're stereotypes.

Stereotypical programmer is a freedom-fighter. They might breach into "locked" systems. They Love to share things. They love quality. A stereotypical business person puts a price for everything and cares only about optimizing profits. These stereotypes are naturally in conflict.

Keep in mind stereotypes do not accurately reflect reality.

Re: Ask HN: Why can't programmers get along with business type people?

#50

Post by onion2k »

zura wrote: post #30
onion2k wrote: post #19

I believe it's largely down to short term goals versus long term goals. From the business perspective, the company should do things quickly because that means the jobs are more profitable, cashflow is stable, and the business team believe that they can always find more clients even if the product is horrible. This is the short term outlook. From the programmers perspective the company should do things slowly because…

Also, programmers are usually "to the point" people, while business people love buzzwords.

Not the most scientific test in the world, but Wikipedia's 'List of Buzzwords'[1] page has 79 for business and 82 for technology. Programmers love them more!

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_buzzwords

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