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Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

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Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#171

Post by jacquesm »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #167
jacquesm wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view it is exactly equivalent to just dying until it has been proven otherwise. > it's clear that restoring a cryopreserved person is possible in principle. Is it?

To quote from Wikipedia, "A central premise of cryonics is that long-term memory, personality, and identity are stored in durable cell structures and patterns within the brain that do not require continuous brain activity to survive.[13] This premise is generally accepted in medicine; it is known that under certain conditions the brain can stop functioning and still later recover with retention of long-term memory."…

There are so many assumptions here it might as well be religion:

- that death does not alter the structure irrepairably

- that the structure and information contained therein will not degrade over time

- that the freezing process itself won't damage the information

- that the information will be recoverable

- that we will be able to make sense of such information

- that the information after successful restoration can be transplanted into some other medium

- that this other medium will be able to 'execute' using that information

- that the electrical component of brain activity once lost can be restored

- and that all of the above will result in a restoration of consciousness

- and that this consciousness will somehow be given the status of person (that's more of a social issue)

All of these together to me are equivalent to or maybe even greater than believing in God.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#173

Post by pron »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #159
ewoodrich wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cryopreservation is not based on faith, it's based on optimism. So is religion, when you get down to it. But the optimism comes from belief in an unknowable deity rather than in future science.

There's a difference between a "belief in an unknowable deity" and extrapolating current scientifical problems and believing in technologies that are known to work. Molecular nanotech, which seems to be the holy grail for restoring cryopreserved patients, is something that is known to work (it's called "life"), and the only missing link is that we don't have much control over it yet. Unless you assume life is magic a…

Your logic is unsound. There is a huge difference between seeing that something is possible in principle and "a solid case", one that merits spending vast sums of money on. That difference is known in religious studies as "a leap of faith".

If you need that leap of faith spelled out, then these are the steps that must be true in order for cryonic preservation to be real and desirable (i.e. "worth it"): the scientific feat you describe needs to be really possible and not just in principle; humans are able to achieve this technology; the preservation process used today must be correct; technology must progress long enough for humans to achieve this technology; future society must be motivated to resurrect our dead; the kind of life offered in the future is one the preserved would desire; the resurrected would be able to adapt to future society; the resurrected would have the means to live a meaningful life in future society.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#174

Post by TeMPOraL »

jacquesm wrote: post #131
eudox wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electron micrography of cryopreserved tissue shows pretty good preservation[0][1], and since every aspect of the mind is dependent on physical properties of the brain, the possibility of revival exists as long as structure and context are preserved in the brain. >marketed to wealthy tech folks Cryonics has historically been a middle class thing. [0] http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/micrographs.html [1] http://www.al…

Electron microscopy of a ram chip shows no difference at all between one that contains a bunch of data and one that is empty.

Fortunately, brains don't work like RAM chips and there is apparently evidence that important data is saved in molecular structure, not in electric charges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics#Neuropreservation

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#175

Post by im3w1l »

drcode wrote: post #72
eudox wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Active shutdown is certainly preferable, but to the best of my knowledge is only legal in Switzerland.

I wonder how long until a cryopreservation startup sets up an office on a cruise ship or some other place so they can offer active shutdown to their customers.

I wonder how long until a cryopreservation startup goes bankrupt and all its customers are 'killed'. Being famous provides some insurance against this I suppose.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#176

Post by TeMPOraL »

ewoodrich wrote: post #164
TeMPOraL wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between a "belief in an unknowable deity" and extrapolating current scientifical problems and believing in technologies that are known to work. Molecular nanotech, which seems to be the holy grail for restoring cryopreserved patients, is something that is known to work (it's called "life"), and the only missing link is that we don't have much control over it yet. Unless you assume life is magic a…

I accept that there is evidence that cryonics may become viable for human subjects in the future. My point is merely that freezing one's own body despite a lack of any evidence that present methods would allow revival of a human in the future requires optimism that is not incomparable with religion.

It's a bet against future technology. How it differs from religion is that a/ we know that required technology is possible, b/ we are pretty confident that current cryopreservation methods are good enough for the required technology to be able to reverse the process, and c/ we make a bet that humanity will reach the point a/. Note that we are sure it can be done, we only don't know if it will be.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#177

Post by JulianMorrison »

pron wrote: post #96
FiloSottile wrote: post #39

It's fascinating, and personally a bit disturbing, to read about his death as an announcement of cryopreservation ("being cryopreserved now") instead of the sad news it is anyway ("died today"). Also the discussion here revolves around he coming back, not he leaving. Maybe it impresses me because he seemed so hopeful to be able to choose life in his post back then when he was diagnosed: "I may even still be able to w…

> I guess one can argue it is a good thing about cryonics, less mourning, more hope. Not more so than in some other religions with their own versions of an afterlife. It all depends on your faith.

Cryonics is the opposite of religious faith in an afterlife, actually. It only makes sense with strict physicalism. If your self is neural state (structural and chemical but not electrical), and the state is preserved, then your life is on pause. That's almost a truism.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#178

Post by bellerocky »

pron wrote: post #173
TeMPOraL wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between a "belief in an unknowable deity" and extrapolating current scientifical problems and believing in technologies that are known to work. Molecular nanotech, which seems to be the holy grail for restoring cryopreserved patients, is something that is known to work (it's called "life"), and the only missing link is that we don't have much control over it yet. Unless you assume life is magic a…

Your logic is unsound. There is a huge difference between seeing that something is possible in principle and "a solid case", one that merits spending vast sums of money on. That difference is known in religious studies as "a leap of faith". If you need that leap of faith spelled out, then these are the steps that must be true in order for cryonic preservation to be real and desirable (i.e. "worth it"): the scientific…

> one that merits spending vast sums of money on.

It's not a lot of money actually, it's just life insurance, a portion of which is allocated to Alcor in case cyropreservation is possible after death. Maybe $20 a month or something depending on your age when you got the policy, plus an annual fee that is mostly deductible as a charitable donation. I consider this fee donating to science, since Alcor actually does good science and publishes research papers. So $20 and a dream and maybe you get to try again.

It's not a risk free investment by any means, but it doesn't require heaps of denial involving topics of science like evolution, intolerance of others, or any dogma. If you want to think cryopreservation is like a religion by all means do, but you're not convincing me.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#179

Post by onan_barbarian »

jdnier wrote: post #50

Ancillary to the sad news, for a fictional treatment of cryopreservation (circa 1993) -- one that I couldn't help think about as I read that email/release -- Gregory Benford's novel, Chiller, works through many of the thought-provoking implications. http://www.gregorybenford.com/product/chiller/

Attanasio's Solis also covers this topic without optimism; the protagonist's brain is used in a mining machine IIRC.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#180

Post by bdamm »

ewoodrich wrote: post #143
brey wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds from the language used ("he did not want his vital functions supported any further but should be allowed to cease functioning and promptly be cryopreserved") that he didn't regard this moment as death at all - merely pausing his life until a) ALS is curable and b) we have the technology to reawaken cryopreserved people. To him, all that was worth announcing here is the cryopreservation. Who's to say he's wr…

Personally, I think cryonics is a pipe dream right now. But I completely respect and empathize with the wishes of Hal Finney to put hope into a future life, possibly without the burden of ALS that he was forced to deal with for a significant portion of his life. If he had the means to do it, and it gave him something while he was still alive, than I would say it was worth it to him.

It seems strange to me to place him into "cold storage" after he was completely ravaged by ALS and had died. Wouldn't there be more hope for a recovery if he had been placed into a frozen state before his physical form had died? No doubt a dicey area of law but surely a treatment for ALS will be reached for those still living before we discover a treatment of ALS for those who are already terminal.
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