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Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

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Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#151

Post by jacquesm »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #149
jacquesm wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until someone is revived we can consider it final.

Well, the whole idea of cryopreservation is that it's a hedge against the progress of technology. One can't be sure we'll ever get to the required level of development (in my belief, we will inevitably, if we won't destroy our civilization beforehand), but it's still better than Just Dying, and - as opposed to religious afterlife vision - it's clear that restoring a cryopreserved person is possible in principle.

In my view it is exactly equivalent to just dying until it has been proven otherwise.

> it's clear that restoring a cryopreserved person is possible in principle.

Is it?

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#152

Post by ScottBurson »

jacquesm wrote: post #109
pron wrote: post #86

I didn't know Hal Finney, but condolences to his family. Comparing different religions' various flavors of afterlife is very interesting, but perhaps this isn't the right forum for it (though maybe it is; I don't know). One thing is certain, though: cryonics's promise of an afterlife is definitely the most materially expensive of all religions -- on average, that is (some Christians spent what probably amounts to mor…

It's just a commoditization. Religion will charge what they think they buyer will be able to afford, cryopreservation companies charge what they think it should cost to get the problem pushed beyond their own lifetimes. It's a scam, but a very clever one, just like religion. The only mitigating factor to me is that the participants here go in eyes wide open rather than that they are sucked in as defenceless children.

I think it's nuts, but I don't know if you can call it a scam when apparently sophisticated people are demanding it.

My old friend Hara Ra (né Gregory Yob -- yes, the creator of Hunt the Wumpus) had it done when he died of cancer in 2005. He was well aware of my opinion about it. Anyway, I figure, it was his money, and if it gave him some comfort in dying (of cancer), maybe it wasn't that badly spent.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#153

Post by teraflop »

jacquesm wrote: post #114
simias wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter). So not really, no. And you should really know better than replying with such trollbait, that's not contributing to the discussion in the slightest. This is the announcement of the death (?) of someone, not the place…

This is not the announcement of the death of someone. The title clearly reads that he's being cryopreserved. If it was about his death I would expect something that would announce that rather than his so-called preservation. This is the trans-humanist movement claiming this moment as theirs rather than an announcement of a good persons death. It's simply an Alcor advertorial, not a eulogy. Supposedly he's not really…

A reasonable definition of death is "loss of consciousness and vital functions in a way that is impossible to reverse". By that definition, Hal Finney might be dead now but nobody really knows for sure, because the reversibility of current cryopreservation techniques is unknown.

Just as in the case of someone who falls into a coma from which they'll probably never wake up, both mourning and hope are reasonable responses. I don't think it's fair to slam this announcement for choosing to put more emphasis on hope.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#155

Post by listic »

eudox wrote: post #15
mef wrote: post #6

Interesting that someone would choose to be cryopreserved somewhere where there's no legal assisted suicide. Wouldn't your chances of being successfully revived improve if you got cryopreserved while still alive?

Active shutdown is certainly preferable, but to the best of my knowledge is only legal in Switzerland.

It is amazing that no cryonics company seems to have investigated this possibility seriously. Well, the cryonics itself seems to be really under-developed, as well.

I am planning to sign up for cryonics ASAP (as soon as I can afford it), and I would really prefer that stand-by and active shutdown were readily available options, but I'm afraid I would have to do all the research and preparation by myself, if I want it to become a reality.

OTOH, the existence of a company Suspended Animation http://www.suspendedinc.com/ gives me hope. How could a company carve out a market for itself, selling additional services for cryonics, which by itself counts less than 300 patients preserved over its 47 year history - I don't know.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#157

Post by TeMPOraL »

Retric wrote: post #105
pron wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess one can argue it is a good thing about cryonics, less mourning, more hope. Not more so than in some other religions with their own versions of an afterlife. It all depends on your faith.

I find it interesting that cryonics and the singularity are both 'modern' religions with that are vary similar in tone to many past religions. They both seems reasonable on the surface, but don't really work if you dig down into the details. Much like all that new age QM BS uses a few of the right words without much substance.

I think it's exactly the other way around. Cryonics/singularity is only similar to religion on the surface, but if you dig down into the details, you realize that there's no element of faith, only reasonable extrapolation of technological trends and a hedge against progress.

I'd say that quite a lot of opposition to those ideas is religion-based. I.e. if you can't believe that a cryopreserved person can be revived in principle, then you must either disagree with modern infomation theory or believe in vitalism.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#158

Post by jacquesm »

teraflop wrote: post #153
jacquesm wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the announcement of the death of someone. The title clearly reads that he's being cryopreserved. If it was about his death I would expect something that would announce that rather than his so-called preservation. This is the trans-humanist movement claiming this moment as theirs rather than an announcement of a good persons death. It's simply an Alcor advertorial, not a eulogy. Supposedly he's not really…

A reasonable definition of death is "loss of consciousness and vital functions in a way that is impossible to reverse". By that definition, Hal Finney might be dead now but nobody really knows for sure, because the reversibility of current cryopreservation techniques is unknown. Just as in the case of someone who falls into a coma from which they'll probably never wake up, both mourning and hope are reasonable respon…

I think it's perfectly fair to call someone whose head has just been cut off and frozen dead. If not there are going to be an awful lot of killers who froze their victims heads exonerated and those that pulled the plugs on the freezers will be in the docket. It's the world on its head.

Mourning is a reasonable response. Advertising is not and this article does not contain a whole lot of mourning (I can't detect any, correct me if I'm wrong) but it certainly does contain a ton of advertising. Essentially it is not about the person at all except for the first 10 words or so.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#159

Post by TeMPOraL »

ewoodrich wrote: post #145
bellerocky wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but don't really work if you dig down into the details. Don't really work? There is no evidence that you can be brought back from cryopreservation, but assuming that it might one day be possible doesn't require throwing out all the known physical laws of the universe so it's hardly a religion. Cryopreservation is not based on faith, it's based on a little bit of optimism. It's not a religion. Edit: qualified on the…

> Cryopreservation is not based on faith, it's based on optimism. So is religion, when you get down to it. But the optimism comes from belief in an unknowable deity rather than in future science.

There's a difference between a "belief in an unknowable deity" and extrapolating current scientifical problems and believing in technologies that are known to work. Molecular nanotech, which seems to be the holy grail for restoring cryopreserved patients, is something that is known to work (it's called "life"), and the only missing link is that we don't have much control over it yet. Unless you assume life is magic and information theory doesn't work with brains, there's a solid case for cryopreservation.
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