Hal Finney being cryopreserved now • Hacker News Board

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#111

Post by simias » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 9:51 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #61

eudox wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Active shutdown is certainly preferable, but to the best of my knowledge is only legal in Switzerland.

That's not called 'active shutdown', that's called murder. Unless you're very ill then it is called euthanasia. Why invent new words when we have perfectly serviceable ones?

Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).

So not really, no. And you should really know better than replying with such trollbait, that's not contributing to the discussion in the slightest. This is the announcement of the death (?) of someone, not the place to argue ethics (or religion, because we all know that's what coming up next).

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#112

Post by gress » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 9:52 PM UTC

tonysuper wrote: post #79

sliverstorm wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would only do it while it remained novel, though. When two or three people are cryopreserved, novelty is enough, but what about when thousands or millions are?

Then you do it out of a sense of duty to the past. People spend ages carefully preserving forks and other trinkets from the 1700s. Surely an entire person would be worth equal care, and a group of people more so.

If duty were enough, we wouldn't have wars or poverty, 'out of duty to our fellow human beings'. Why are people who are already dead more deserving of such 'duty'?

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#113

Post by Erwin » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 9:52 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #54

wlesieutre wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that your rates go up as you age and get more likely to die. In your 20's it's only covering improbably illnesses and events like car accidents. But nobody's going to extend those same rates to you once you're 85 and already had two heart attacks.

What if some improbable event happened like a major Earthquake or war or something that unexpectedly kills a lot of young people. Would the insurance company be able to pay out?

Who insures the insurers? The reinsurers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinsurance

Interestingly, insurance actuaries here in Denmark has one of the highest incomes. 25% of those with the degree end up in top-1% income (vs 11% of those with a law degree). More (in Danish): http://www.business.dk/karriere/her-er-vejen-til-den-hoejest...

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#114

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 9:55 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #111

jacquesm wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not called 'active shutdown', that's called murder. Unless you're very ill then it is called euthanasia. Why invent new words when we have perfectly serviceable ones?

Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human, and generally this premeditated state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter). So not really, no. And you should really know better than replying with such trollbait, that's not contributing to the discussion in the slightest. This is the announcement of the death (?) of someone, not the place…

This is not the announcement of the death of someone.

The title clearly reads that he's being cryopreserved. If it was about his death I would expect something that would announce that rather than his so-called preservation.

This is the trans-humanist movement claiming this moment as theirs rather than an announcement of a good persons death.

It's simply an Alcor advertorial, not a eulogy.

Supposedly he's not really dead, so either we can react to the article and he'll read this in the future and laugh at me or we should mourn him because he really is dead. Make up your minds.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#115

Post by DonHopkins » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 9:56 PM UTC

eudox wrote: post #89

sliverstorm wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe reviving will be easy, but IMO the real hangup is power costs. Keeping someone in cryo has regular upkeep costs. That complicates matters a lot.

Liquid Nitrogen is one of the cheapest fluids on the planet. Dewars are refilled every week. If the supply of LN was cut, the LN on each dewar would take months to evaporate -- And the patients are stored upside-down, so the head is the last thing to reach thermal equilibrium. There is no electricity involved.

A friend of mine who works for Alcor once converted somebody from full body to head only. They used a chain saw.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#116

Post by pron » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 9:58 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #105

pron wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess one can argue it is a good thing about cryonics, less mourning, more hope. Not more so than in some other religions with their own versions of an afterlife. It all depends on your faith.

I find it interesting that cryonics and the singularity are both 'modern' religions with that are vary similar in tone to many past religions. They both seems reasonable on the surface, but don't really work if you dig down into the details. Much like all that new age QM BS uses a few of the right words without much substance.

Interesting -- yes; surprising -- not at all. After all, religions (whether true or not (there's only one true religion but I'm not going to tell you what it is)) serve the same deep human psychological needs. What I find curious about most versions of an afterlife is this: they all describe life without death, and some (including singularity) describe a pure spiritual (non-corporal) existence. Each of these things on its own -- let alone together -- makes that existence in the afterlife distinctly non human. Whatever we're reborn as, it's no longer human, but somehow it's not only us, but us as we'd want to exist. Note how religions that believe in reincarnation are different in that respect: they promise a constant re-birth but always in (at least hopefully) human form.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#117

Post by gress » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 9:58 PM UTC

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #36

ericb wrote: post #4

I'm curious--in these cryopreservation arrangements, what is done to incentivize future people to resurrect you? Anyone know?

Once we've defeated death, reviving people who were preserved is the next logical step after saving everyone currently alive. Saving everyone who was not cryopreserved might not be possible, but will also be worth a shot.

Once we've defeated death, the incentive will be to reduce the population sharply and strictly control reproduction. Adding new people from amongst the dead will be the last thing on anyone's minds.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#118

Post by Coincoin » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 9:59 PM UTC

maaku wrote: post #33

amalag wrote: post #23

He is legally dead, so good luck bringing him back to life.

Yes, because legal definitions impose their validity on the universe.

I think he was referring to the legal clusterfuck that happens when someone who is legally dead isn't actually dead.

http://www.loweringthebar.net/2013/10/no-youre-still-decease...

http://www.loweringthebar.net/2014/08/feds-say-legally-dead-...

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#119

Post by pron » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:01 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #109

pron wrote: post #86

I didn't know Hal Finney, but condolences to his family. Comparing different religions' various flavors of afterlife is very interesting, but perhaps this isn't the right forum for it (though maybe it is; I don't know). One thing is certain, though: cryonics's promise of an afterlife is definitely the most materially expensive of all religions -- on average, that is (some Christians spent what probably amounts to mor…

It's just a commoditization. Religion will charge what they think they buyer will be able to afford, cryopreservation companies charge what they think it should cost to get the problem pushed beyond their own lifetimes. It's a scam, but a very clever one, just like religion. The only mitigating factor to me is that the participants here go in eyes wide open rather than that they are sucked in as defenceless children.

I think religion (and I include cryonics in that category for the purpose of this discussion) is far from being a scam as it most certainly provides immediate benefits that cannot be dismissed. I'm sure it makes people happy to pay a high price for effectively convincing themselves that their death is merely temporary, thus hopefully alleviating what may be a very burdensome dread. That money would otherwise be spent on alcohol, drugs or therapy, and may not be as effective.

Re: Hal Finney being cryopreserved now

#120

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 10:02 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #119

jacquesm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a commoditization. Religion will charge what they think they buyer will be able to afford, cryopreservation companies charge what they think it should cost to get the problem pushed beyond their own lifetimes. It's a scam, but a very clever one, just like religion. The only mitigating factor to me is that the participants here go in eyes wide open rather than that they are sucked in as defenceless children.

I think religion (and I include cryonics in that category for the purpose of this discussion) is far from being a scam as it most certainly provides immediate benefits that cannot be dismissed. I'm sure it makes people happy to pay a high price for effectively convincing themselves that their death is merely temporary, thus hopefully alleviating what may be a very burdensome dread. That money would otherwise be spent…

A common element in scams is that they make promises they can't deliver on and relieve people of their funds.