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The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

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Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#81

Post by phaus »

SyneRyder wrote: post #40
microtonal wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that they are afraid, it's that they are in bed together. Dutch intelligence relies on US intelligence and visa versa for 'the war on terror'. The situation in Germany is similar, the German government was only offended when it turned out that they tapped Merkel's phone. When it were regular citizens, most politicians shrugged their shoulders, some put on a small show for their electorate. One of the few ins…

I think Merkel deserves at least a little credit for speaking out in public, even if some of it was for the elections. When visiting Germany it was amazing how much news coverage there was about Snowden & how aware everyone was... you couldn't avoid it, his face was even on digital billboards in train stations. It was markedly different to Australia, where the politicians almost all support it, it was a minor TV news…

>I think Merkel deserves at least a little credit for speaking out in public, even if some of it was for the elections.

She doesn't deserve any credit. As soon as she paid a visit to Obama, Germany went back to bending over for the U.S. All of the investigations in Germany were immediately shut down and they abandoned plans to have Snowden testify in court.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#82

Post by simplemath »

daigoba66 wrote: post #32

I recommend that anyone interested in the topic watch this film: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-sec... It's incredibly detailed, though focusing primarily on executive action post 2011.

That two part documentary should be required viewing. For everyone.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#83

Post by happyscrappy »

grrowl wrote: post #54
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay my government to spy on people in other countries to make sure they are not going to hurt me. And, more to the point, they aren't going to put in motion things that are could conceivably hurt me or those I care about. I hate the security state, but I'm okay with that. We've got hundred of millions of people here. There are billions of people in the world. It makes sense to me to spy on all the folks in other co…

I'd like to add the emphasis: > It makes sense to me to spy on all the folks in other countries. I'm not American, but I do live in a Five Eyes nation. I've had to come to terms that all my online correspondence for over a decade is stored in some data farm somewhere, for the sole purpose of incriminating me or someone I know. I'm not at all a terrorist, I don't infringe on the privacy or comfort of others, and yet I…

>for the sole purpose of incriminating me

Right, do you actually believe it has nothing to do with national security? Also it is funny how the home countries who have made intelligence deals with the US get a free pass. This is self fulfilling. Why don't you change your own country? Because you could actually do something, you know instead of just complaining. Maybe that is why?

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#84

Post by happyscrappy »

microtonal wrote: post #31
teekert wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I find it way more shocking that my government (the Netherlands) is so laid back about all this than the "revelation" that Americans care about America spying on Americans. Yes, the dutch government announced a Dropbox alternative that is open source ( http://tweakers.net/nieuws/97793/overheid-werkt-aan-opensour... ) but I believe it is the wrong approach. They should publicly denounce NSA spying and swear t…

It's not that they are afraid, it's that they are in bed together. Dutch intelligence relies on US intelligence and visa versa for 'the war on terror'. The situation in Germany is similar, the German government was only offended when it turned out that they tapped Merkel's phone. When it were regular citizens, most politicians shrugged their shoulders, some put on a small show for their electorate. One of the few ins…

Well the narrative that "the entire West works together on intel" doesn't work very well does it. What are people supposed to do, hate the entire West?

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#85

Post by happyscrappy »

ivanca wrote: post #64
mikeash wrote: post #48

This quote struck me: "After the United States faced another existential threat in the immediate aftermath of the September 11 attacks...." I'm amazed at how accepting the media is of the threat of terrorism. That statement implicitly compares al Qaeda to the Soviets. The Soviets who, if they had had a bad day and decided to say "screw it" and wipe out capitalism for good could have done so within an hour. A country…

Any given couple of days more Americans die from heart diseases than those who died by the 911 attacks, I have yet to see someone call those "an existential thread for America". But we never learn. The best thing that could happen right now for the NSA and the military in the mist of this criticism is another attack on US land, the former will say " see! This is why we need to spy today more than ever! " and the mili…

I am so tired of this specious argument. Committing suicide is not the same as being murdered.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#86

Post by happyscrappy »

coldcode wrote: post #38

There is no room in a supposedly democracy (republic) for law by fiat. Either the people are ultimately in charge or we live in a dictatorship. The Constitution is not an option.

This is the real problem, you cannot have secret laws. Period. Wasting time wishing nations would just not spy is foolish.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#87

Post by mikeash »

happyscrappy wrote: post #85
ivanca wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any given couple of days more Americans die from heart diseases than those who died by the 911 attacks, I have yet to see someone call those "an existential thread for America". But we never learn. The best thing that could happen right now for the NSA and the military in the mist of this criticism is another attack on US land, the former will say " see! This is why we need to spy today more than ever! " and the mili…

I am so tired of this specious argument. Committing suicide is not the same as being murdered.

Where'd "suicide" come from?

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#88

Post by worklogin »

bakhy wrote: post #5

The same offensive narrative repeats itself. - The government is bulk collecting data on foreigners. - Meh... - They're also incidentally spying on US citizens in the processs. - SAY WHAT?! If the USA could try to acknowledge the human rights of non-US citizens, that would be really nice.

And your same indignant stance will get largely ignored by me, because it ignores a core fact: The US doesn't have imminent jurisdiction over you. You likely aren't ever going to run for political office in the United States. The US probably doesn't share data with local Japanese law enforcement.

In short, the practical threat is much lower for you than it is for an American. The CIA spied on the Intelligence committee charged with the agency's oversight. The NSA and CIA and FBI all likely have dossiers on every state and federal politician in the country. That means a heck of a lot more than them doing legit SIGINT on adversaries across the world.

And frankly, even if I completely agree with you, we're still talking about the U.S. Constitution being blatantly ignored. I know canonical legal documents of a country aren't as big a thing in other places, but here, it tends to mean something.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#89

Post by ivanca »

happyscrappy wrote: post #85
ivanca wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any given couple of days more Americans die from heart diseases than those who died by the 911 attacks, I have yet to see someone call those "an existential thread for America". But we never learn. The best thing that could happen right now for the NSA and the military in the mist of this criticism is another attack on US land, the former will say " see! This is why we need to spy today more than ever! " and the mili…

I am so tired of this specious argument. Committing suicide is not the same as being murdered.

I'm not talking about suicide. If you eat for sake of pleasure and NOT in order to die, it may be stupidity but it is not suicide.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#90

Post by grrowl »

happyscrappy wrote: post #83
grrowl wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to add the emphasis: > It makes sense to me to spy on all the folks in other countries. I'm not American, but I do live in a Five Eyes nation. I've had to come to terms that all my online correspondence for over a decade is stored in some data farm somewhere, for the sole purpose of incriminating me or someone I know. I'm not at all a terrorist, I don't infringe on the privacy or comfort of others, and yet I…

>for the sole purpose of incriminating me Right, do you actually believe it has nothing to do with national security? Also it is funny how the home countries who have made intelligence deals with the US get a free pass. This is self fulfilling. Why don't you change your own country? Because you could actually do something, you know instead of just complaining. Maybe that is why?

We are making progress in our own country, but it's slow. Our prime minister ignores rallies with tens of thousands of citizens in every capital city decrying new policies similar to the US's, the debate on metadata collection is fierce, polls show 97% of citizens want an emergency federal election called immediately.

I'm leveraging my skills to create a website to inform voters exactly the consequence of their vote, since many people can't believe their vote ends up in the hands of a party contrary to their beliefs; apart from that, I feel like I've exhausted most reasonable options available to me. Reasonable debate is only one small part in instigating change.

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