The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni • Hacker News Board

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#71

Post by lotsofmangos » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 3:54 PM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #69

lotsofmangos wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I was being somehow unfair in checking your post history, when you explicitly said to check your post history? Next five before that are: turning off power in nuclear plant bitcoin funds transfer advice on drinking water theories on OSS encryption of metadata This isn't a 'gotcha', just pointing out that you are repeatedly bullshitting about things that are easily verifiable. And idly wondering why. edit - Hang on…

If they were easily verifiable you'd have gone back to the threads in the Snowden era rather then played pedant with what you can dig up on the first couple of pages of my comment history. It isn't and you know it. EDIT: And that search engine definitely isn't fully indexed. But a search for me and points EDIT 2: Though to spin this around for a moment, that is handy utility - thanks!

You are welcome, but it is only the search box at the bottom of the page. It wasn't especially difficult to find.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#72

Post by bakhy » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:01 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #44

bakhy wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about human rights. "All men are created equal." Of course the US government must only bow to its own people, and only US citizens can lead its policy, that is perfectly understandable. But we all deserve basic human rights and a country that is one of their biggest champions should, for the sake of its credibility, not ignore that! It would be ideal if some oversight existed for ALL such surveillance. With all…

I pay my government to spy on people in other countries to make sure they are not going to hurt me. And, more to the point, they aren't going to put in motion things that are could conceivably hurt me or those I care about. I hate the security state, but I'm okay with that. We've got hundred of millions of people here. There are billions of people in the world. It makes sense to me to spy on all the folks in other co…

The sentence "Screw that" is actually the core of your argument. Why not spy on "folks" (are you a politician? :D) at home? Their power of voting and free motion within your whole country actually makes them much more dangerous to your safety than any foreigner can be.

The reason why they won't be so easily spied on is not "screw that", it's because they are voters. Not because spying on voters is wrong - but simply because they can change the government when they get annoyed! So, as it is meant to, voting protects the human rights of a population.

But it would be nice if that population would actually believe in human rights. Particularly if they want to portray themselves champions of the matter. But if your attitude is an example, "screw that", huh?

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#73

Post by AJ007 » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:08 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #7

You can't make this stuff up. According to TFA: 1. CIA created black propaganda in USSR linking Soviets and international terrorists to foment dissent in Russia. 2. Somebody picked it up from outside and wrote a book about Soviet-terrorism links. 3. CIA director read the book, took it seriously, freaked out, lobbied for more powers. 4. CIA and NSA got more powers. It's clearly not the first time in history that an in…

Lessons are here for groups outside intelligence as well: political, corporations, not-for-profits, universities, etc.

If you create enough propaganda, repeat it long enough, and put great effort in to suppressing the debunking of that propaganda eventually your own people will fall victim to that propaganda and believe that it is unquestionably true. At that point any remaining success is not the result of good decision making but of either randomness or some very dominant advantage over all other parties.

Politics is particularly sensitive to this weakness. While the original group of propaganda producers understand what the bullshit in the message is, and understand the actual purpose of the action being justified is, even the brightest outside of this group will struggle to figure it out.

Without naming names, you can watch politicians and political groups trip and choke on their own propaganda all of the time. The simple explanation stuff sounds farcical, while incredible complex propaganda can often only be identified by someone with a deep understanding on the topic. Sometimes it is more dangerous to the producing group than the intended target.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#74

Post by AJ007 » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:15 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #48

This quote struck me: "After the United States faced another existential threat in the immediate aftermath of the September 11 attacks...." I'm amazed at how accepting the media is of the threat of terrorism. That statement implicitly compares al Qaeda to the Soviets. The Soviets who, if they had had a bad day and decided to say "screw it" and wipe out capitalism for good could have done so within an hour. A country…

I do not think the country needs an enemy, but I believe leaders want one. Perhaps they imagine themselves as a Winston Churchill or other great military leader. Or, it could simply be the need to call great attention to one area so that they can re-organize things in another without political opposition.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#75

Post by bostik » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:32 PM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #47

ZoFreX wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hacker aged over 24 here. Sure, we all knew. But it's one thing to "know", it's another entirely to have tangible proof. Whenever I spoke about this to people 10 years ago the reaction was "there's no proof, you're paranoid, you're a conspiracy theorist". Now we have proof the reaction is "so what, everyone knows that, I have nothing to hide". There's some serious goalpost shifting happening here.

Isn't that one of the worst things to come of the Snowden leaks so far? There aren't many conspiracy theories I can, with full conviction, point at and laugh anymore. Maybe reptile people in government. But otherwise...

Maybe not reptile, but certainly invertebrate.

Pretty much a universal phenomenon.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#76

Post by chc » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:43 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #43

toyg wrote: post #7

You can't make this stuff up. According to TFA: 1. CIA created black propaganda in USSR linking Soviets and international terrorists to foment dissent in Russia. 2. Somebody picked it up from outside and wrote a book about Soviet-terrorism links. 3. CIA director read the book, took it seriously, freaked out, lobbied for more powers. 4. CIA and NSA got more powers. It's clearly not the first time in history that an in…

As retold by Adam Curtis in the excellent BBC three-parter "The Power of Nightmares": 3a. CIA people told new director, "er, boss, that was actually us". 3b. CIA director does not believe his own people. And of course the whole "Team B" episode (Rumsfeld etc.), where the complete lack of evidence that the Soviets had was reinterpreted to mean they MUST OBVIOUSLY HAVE and perfect secrecy, otherwise how could we not ha…

Curtis wrote also wrote a great piece about the role incompetence played in the formation of intelligence agencies, titled "BUGGER: Maybe the Real State Secret Is That Spies Aren't Very Good At Their Jobs And Don't Know Very Much About the World".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/posts/BUGGER

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#77

Post by scrumper » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:49 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #7

You can't make this stuff up. According to TFA: 1. CIA created black propaganda in USSR linking Soviets and international terrorists to foment dissent in Russia. 2. Somebody picked it up from outside and wrote a book about Soviet-terrorism links. 3. CIA director read the book, took it seriously, freaked out, lobbied for more powers. 4. CIA and NSA got more powers. It's clearly not the first time in history that an in…

It all seems logical to me: if (3) and (4) didn't happen (because the CIA knew it was the source of the material in the book), then it would have sent a strong signal to the Soviets confirming that the CIA was behind the propaganda. That may have bought extra KGB attention to bear on in-country CIA assets responsible for spreading it. The corollary being that a CIA reaction of (3) and (4) further bolsters the apparent legitimacy of the propaganda.

And, of course, what spy agency wouldn't want (4)?

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#78

Post by charonn0 » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #48

This quote struck me: "After the United States faced another existential threat in the immediate aftermath of the September 11 attacks...." I'm amazed at how accepting the media is of the threat of terrorism. That statement implicitly compares al Qaeda to the Soviets. The Soviets who, if they had had a bad day and decided to say "screw it" and wipe out capitalism for good could have done so within an hour. A country…

This. Islamic terrorists (or any other variety) have never presented an existential threat to the United States. Moreover, we aggrandize those very terrorists by making the claim.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#79

Post by Floegipoky » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:56 PM UTC

AJ007 wrote: post #73

toyg wrote: post #7

You can't make this stuff up. According to TFA: 1. CIA created black propaganda in USSR linking Soviets and international terrorists to foment dissent in Russia. 2. Somebody picked it up from outside and wrote a book about Soviet-terrorism links. 3. CIA director read the book, took it seriously, freaked out, lobbied for more powers. 4. CIA and NSA got more powers. It's clearly not the first time in history that an in…

Lessons are here for groups outside intelligence as well: political, corporations, not-for-profits, universities, etc. If you create enough propaganda, repeat it long enough, and put great effort in to suppressing the debunking of that propaganda eventually your own people will fall victim to that propaganda and believe that it is unquestionably true. At that point any remaining success is not the result of good deci…

You just described the war on drugs. Generations of leaders who were brainwashed in grade school now perpetuate the exact same hysteria and junk science. Just goes to show how long-lasting this process can be.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#80

Post by CWuestefeld » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 5:06 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #62

CWuestefeld wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The race card isn't playable here. The computers collecting the data don't know what race the people being monitored belong to.

You don't think this stuff gets cross-referenced with databases that contain racial classifications, and that this influences decisions farther down the line?

It probably does happen. We know about the "parallel construction" thing, telling us that regular law enforcement is seeing some of the gathered data. And they may be acting prejudicially.

But this isn't related to the surveillance thing as such. Criticism of this racism, if it exists, should be targeted at some combination of the prejudice in the police agencies, the leaking of the data that's supposed to be locked in a vault, and at a stretch, the lopsided impact of the laws on various racial groups.