Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#131

Post by vdaniuk » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:41 PM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #125

This is what information war looks like. Disinformation, propaganda, FUD, distortion, lies, astroturfing, bias, plausible deniability and false flag ops - from ALL sides. How are we as information professionals supposed to deal with this? I have no way to form an opinion on this conflict as everything I read has been filtered through a media (social media included) which has either no means or no motivation to prove…

"ALL sides", "no way to form an opinion", "information war".

Pay attention, this is how astroturfing to spread FUD looks like. The person is not trying to increase understanding, he or she is trying to promote apathy.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#132

Post by foobarqux » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:45 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #63

legohead wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's hard to support either Ukraine or Russia - you definitely can't believe what either have to say. Ukraine is still having protests in Kiev, and calling for impeachment of the person they just fought to have put in place there... we can't cry foul at Russia arms/tanks showing up, considering what we give to Israel et al. also, considering Putin's track record, this is too brute force for him. he does things in suc…

The situation in Ukraine is complicated, I agree. However, I believe Ukraine has the right to deal with their internal problems internally. This is like China saying "well, there are protests in DC, so let's roll the tanks right in and clean this mess up for them." > we can't cry foul at Russia arms/tanks showing up, considering what we give to Israel et al. also, considering Putin's track record, this is too brute f…

I assume you feel the same way about US invasions?

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#133

Post by AngrySkillzz » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:48 PM UTC

zorbo wrote: post #81

IgorPartola wrote: post #33

I am continually astounded by the amount of support Russia receives from HN commenters. Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong that it reaches all the way to the Bay area, or are there a lot of Russians on here? What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine and what will be the NATO position at that point? I have no delusions that NATO will not engage in any military conflict, since nobody…

I'm in a position where I'm mostly exposed to non-western information regarding the situation in Ukraine, since my girlfriend is Russian. It's funny to see the exact opposite story as the western media is giving. Stories about pro-russians being harassed by pro-western Urkainians and the government were (and are) abundant. From their point of view, a pro-russian government was illegitimately overthrown. General opini…

> General opinion seems to be that democracy only matters to the west as long as it's not too inconvenient to them.

Maybe it's not true in this case, but that would be a much easier point to argue against if the west hadn't continually demonstrated that.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#134

Post by jl6 » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:50 PM UTC

vdaniuk wrote: post #131

jl6 wrote: post #125

This is what information war looks like. Disinformation, propaganda, FUD, distortion, lies, astroturfing, bias, plausible deniability and false flag ops - from ALL sides. How are we as information professionals supposed to deal with this? I have no way to form an opinion on this conflict as everything I read has been filtered through a media (social media included) which has either no means or no motivation to prove…

"ALL sides", "no way to form an opinion", "information war". Pay attention, this is how astroturfing to spread FUD looks like. The person is not trying to increase understanding, he or she is trying to promote apathy.

No, I'm appealing for help in trying to understand the situation. You seem to have a strong opinion on the matter. How have you come to that in such a hostile information environment?

Edit: on second reading, your comment seems tantamount to accusing me of being "one of them". Everyone seems to have picked a side and is part of the fight. Where's the verifiably objective and neutral commentary?

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#135

Post by nokiaman » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:54 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #109

zorbo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a position where I'm mostly exposed to non-western information regarding the situation in Ukraine, since my girlfriend is Russian. It's funny to see the exact opposite story as the western media is giving. Stories about pro-russians being harassed by pro-western Urkainians and the government were (and are) abundant. From their point of view, a pro-russian government was illegitimately overthrown. General opini…

I appreciate a reasoned response. However: 1. Propaganda: in Russia, the media is very tightly controlled by the Kremlin. This is not the case in the US and most Western countries. Russia can use propaganda easily, and it is in their interest. The stories come out of their media are suspiciously different from any other stories from anywhere else. Simplest explanation: they are using propaganda, or at least coloring…

Here's an air-strike on a civilian area, and a probable war crime committed by the Ukrainian government. It's gory, it's sickening. How many reporters from the Free Press covered this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=I91...

All sides must be held to account for any crimes committed. However, it's hard to have any kind of rational discussion when so many people have a Pavlovian reaction to the word "Russia" (and "China").

I have no dog in this fight, but it seems like even normally rational and logic-minded programmers and hackers are not immune to conditioning over a period of time.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#136

Post by xi » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:55 PM UTC

zorbo wrote: post #113

varsketiz wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "counter-party", which is Russian media is on the defensive for a good reason. They have a lot to be defensive about, ie http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-satellite-photo-evidence... Russia is offensive in their actions and defensive in the words covering it up. Would you like to provide examples of Ukraine's unfounded allegations against Russia? Would you like to explain how this is needless escalation, when p…

> needless escalation, when part of Ukraine is occupied by Russia? The occupation of Ukraine is something that's only happening as of just now. Before that, the situation in Ukraine was much more akin to a civil war. The escalations by the Ukrainian government have been happening since the beginning of this whole thing.

Crimea was occupied by Russian forces in February. Military hostilities in mainland Ukraine started in April when Sloviansk has been captured by Russian ex-FSB officer Igor Girkin and his gang of Russian ultranationalists.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#137

Post by ascotan » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 4:56 PM UTC

explorigin wrote: post #52

peaton wrote: post #3

Wow, I guess this is what would have happened online during World War II if it happened in modern times. Interesting historic landmark as far as information dissemination during confrontations/wars.

No, it's not at all what happened when the Nazi's advanced in WWII. If you watch the Vice News reports, it seems that the people are ambivalent to who rules over them, they just want the fighting to stop. In contrast, in WWII, the Nazis were not much liked by the occupied peoples.

Nonsense. Go read a book. When the Nazi's rolled into Austria they were met by cheering crowds.

The similarities between these 2 conflicts is extremely eerie.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#138

Post by tiatia » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 5:04 PM UTC

IgorPartola wrote: post #33

I am continually astounded by the amount of support Russia receives from HN commenters. Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong that it reaches all the way to the Bay area, or are there a lot of Russians on here? What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine and what will be the NATO position at that point? I have no delusions that NATO will not engage in any military conflict, since nobody…

I don't know where to start.

Crimea? Always was Russian. Once given as a "present" to Ukraine. Do you doubt that a second referendum would give a different result? What did the west do in and with Yugoslavia? What about the NATO expansion towards Russia? What would the US do if Russia starts fucking around with Mexico?

Read this book and understand the foreign policy of the US and all the conflicts happening near Russia (Georgia, Ukraine etc.) http://www.amazon.com/The-Grand-Chessboard-Geostrategic-Impe...

Or a little bit information from "the other side" http://www.vineyardsaker.co.nz/

The EU has nothing to do in Ukraine. And if people want to secede, why not let them?

Instead of the US/EU Freetrade agreement, the EU should have offered the deal to Putin and the problem if Ukraine does the deal with the EU or Russia would have been non-existent. A freetrade zone from Vladivostok to Lisbon would have been created.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#139

Post by varsketiz » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 5:08 PM UTC

zorbo wrote: post #127

thenmar wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So would you disagree with the general sentiment in the west that most Russian media is state controlled and relatively unfree compared to most western media?

I don't agree or disagree, because I honestly have no idea, because I don't think I've been getting much official Russian media information. It don't think it's much different then it is over here in the west. People get their information from all over the place. I'm guessing there's national Russian media (which is state controlled, biased and in general not to be trusted), but there's also plenty of pro-russian int…

That is a very western-ish view of how things in Russia are. You judge them by your own ideals.

Yes, there might be some pro-russian international media that is not controlled by Kremlin, but most of the time you can trace the money to Russia. We can discuss any specific examples that you want - I'm not claiming knowledge here, but I don't want to do a lot of research for a HN comment. I'll give one example - rt.com.

I mean, you "think" that is a fallacy, but what do you base it on? Do you think things like this don't indicate a thing? http://rsf.org/index2014/en-index2014.php

I'm not claiming there is no pro-russian international media that is not funded by Russia. I am saying it will be difficult to find it.

Imagine all the TV be like Fox News and actually controlled by the Government. You will get closer to Russian reality.

You also have to understand that whatever you read in english, that comes from things like rt.com is adapted to a broader and more intelligent audience and to foreigners. What you get in russian is different.

Disclaimer - I am a lithuanian, I am exposed to lithuanian media which covers things from Ukrainian perspective, sometimes covers news from the Separatist side; I am exposed to western media. Sadly, my russian is quite poor, so I'm not exposed to russian media in russian much.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#140

Post by danmaz74 » Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 5:17 PM UTC

zorbo wrote: post #81

IgorPartola wrote: post #33

I am continually astounded by the amount of support Russia receives from HN commenters. Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong that it reaches all the way to the Bay area, or are there a lot of Russians on here? What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine and what will be the NATO position at that point? I have no delusions that NATO will not engage in any military conflict, since nobody…

I'm in a position where I'm mostly exposed to non-western information regarding the situation in Ukraine, since my girlfriend is Russian. It's funny to see the exact opposite story as the western media is giving. Stories about pro-russians being harassed by pro-western Urkainians and the government were (and are) abundant. From their point of view, a pro-russian government was illegitimately overthrown. General opini…

Putin said that:

* No Russian army forces were active in Crimea

* He would never annex Crimea to Russia

He then annexed Crimea, and distributed lots of decorations to the army corps that occupied it. How can we possibly still trust anything Putin says?

Regarding who is mistreating whom, what do you think about the forced march of Ukrainian POWs on the day of Ukraine independence, or about this: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/26/world/europe/russia-ukrain...