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Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

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121–130 of 180 posts

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#121
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "counter-party", which is Russian media is on the defensive for a good reason. They have a lot to be defensive about, ie http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-satellite-photo-evidence... Russia is offensive in their actions and defensive in the words covering it up. Would you like to provide examples of Ukraine's unfounded allegations against Russia? Would you like to explain how this is needless escalation, when p…

> needless escalation, when part of Ukraine is occupied by Russia? The occupation of Ukraine is something that's only happening as of just now. Before that, the situation in Ukraine was much more akin to a civil war. The escalations by the Ukrainian government have been happening since the beginning of this whole thing.

Conveniently forgetting about Crimea, aren't you?

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#122

I am continually astounded by the amount of support Russia receives from HN commenters. Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong that it reaches all the way to the Bay area, or are there a lot of Russians on here? What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine and what will be the NATO position at that point? I have no delusions that NATO will not engage in any military conflict, since nobody…

> Also, I wonder if Putin is really willing to continue this invasion at the cost of being ex-communicated by the US and parts of Western Europe? I suppose he is currently banking that most of Western Europe depends on his natural gas, so they cannot completely shut him out.

Yes, he is. This is as much about internal Russian politics as any international issues. The Russian economy is doing well, but most of the gains are concentrated in the hands of the ruling oligarchy. So the people haven't seen much benefit, and are angry about their economic situation. Putin has put out a lot of nationalist propaganda blaming NATO (specifically the EU and USA) for any economic hardship the people face. This distracts from the fact that he and his buddies are basically robbing the country blind. He has cast himself as the "defender of Russia" in a geopolitical battle against the US and EU.

A large part of this nationalist campaign has focused on building a "new Russian empire" from the former Soviet bloc countries. They've used the auspices of protecting "native Russians" in these countries (even though the idea of a "native Russian" is laughably absurd since the USSR forced everyone to learn Russian anyway) by providing Russian passports to anyone who wants one. They use the threat of invasion to extort cooperation from these countries and keep them in the Russian sphere of influence. Ukraine overthrew its Russian-puppet government, which prompted the whole invasion of Crimea.

Putin knows that the EU needs his oil, so he's testing his limits to see how much he can get away with. The EU has shown no signs of imposing any real sanctions because if they did, the EU would go through a similar situation that the US did in the 70s. So Russia's infractions have to go so far that the EU is willing to plunge itself into recession. I don't know where the limit is, but it's not anywhere close to where we are now.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#123

I am continually astounded by the amount of support Russia receives from HN commenters. Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong that it reaches all the way to the Bay area, or are there a lot of Russians on here? What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine and what will be the NATO position at that point? I have no delusions that NATO will not engage in any military conflict, since nobody…

it's hard to support either Ukraine or Russia - you definitely can't believe what either have to say. Ukraine is still having protests in Kiev, and calling for impeachment of the person they just fought to have put in place there... we can't cry foul at Russia arms/tanks showing up, considering what we give to Israel et al. also, considering Putin's track record, this is too brute force for him. he does things in suc…

Actually, today's events in Kyiv weren't a protests. It was more like a meeting. While information about so called impeachment requirement was spread by russian media.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#124
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a position where I'm mostly exposed to non-western information regarding the situation in Ukraine, since my girlfriend is Russian. It's funny to see the exact opposite story as the western media is giving. Stories about pro-russians being harassed by pro-western Urkainians and the government were (and are) abundant. From their point of view, a pro-russian government was illegitimately overthrown. General opini…

I appreciate a reasoned response. However: 1. Propaganda: in Russia, the media is very tightly controlled by the Kremlin. This is not the case in the US and most Western countries. Russia can use propaganda easily, and it is in their interest. The stories come out of their media are suspiciously different from any other stories from anywhere else. Simplest explanation: they are using propaganda, or at least coloring…

1. Western media consistently represents pro-state messages even without direct state control. This is for structural reasons (read Manufacturing Consent).

2. The US is definitely not "leaving Ukraine alone".

3. Typical jejeune analysis that reduces geopolitics to ego and personality defects (and only criticizing those of one side)

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#125
This is what information war looks like. Disinformation, propaganda, FUD, distortion, lies, astroturfing, bias, plausible deniability and false flag ops - from ALL sides.

How are we as information professionals supposed to deal with this? I have no way to form an opinion on this conflict as everything I read has been filtered through a media (social media included) which has either no means or no motivation to prove the trustworthiness of their message.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#126
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "counter-party", which is Russian media is on the defensive for a good reason. They have a lot to be defensive about, ie http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-satellite-photo-evidence... Russia is offensive in their actions and defensive in the words covering it up. Would you like to provide examples of Ukraine's unfounded allegations against Russia? Would you like to explain how this is needless escalation, when p…

> needless escalation, when part of Ukraine is occupied by Russia? The occupation of Ukraine is something that's only happening as of just now. Before that, the situation in Ukraine was much more akin to a civil war. The escalations by the Ukrainian government have been happening since the beginning of this whole thing.

Are you saying Crimea is not occupied, or are you calling what happened months ago "now"?

Would you care to provide specific examples of the escalations?

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#127
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in a position where I'm mostly exposed to non-western information regarding the situation in Ukraine, since my girlfriend is Russian. It's funny to see the exact opposite story as the western media is giving. Stories about pro-russians being harassed by pro-western Urkainians and the government were (and are) abundant. From their point of view, a pro-russian government was illegitimately overthrown. General opini…

So would you disagree with the general sentiment in the west that most Russian media is state controlled and relatively unfree compared to most western media?

I don't agree or disagree, because I honestly have no idea, because I don't think I've been getting much official Russian media information. It don't think it's much different then it is over here in the west. People get their information from all over the place. I'm guessing there's national Russian media (which is state controlled, biased and in general not to be trusted), but there's also plenty of pro-russian international media, which is not bound by whatever the Russian government dictates.

So in short, I think (but am not sure) that the whole concept of "State controlled Russian media" is a fallacy. Even if there's an agency that's state controlled, it doesn't matter. It would be like Fox news being owned by the U.S. government.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#128
post #27

Am I the only one who feels uneasy about stuff like this? I can't quite figure out why.

Your not the only one. Its a strange feeling that Russia can do whatever it wants and there are no consequences. They seem a little out of control. They annexed Crimea. Nobody did anything. They shot down a civilian airliner (or supplied the missiles/training). No consequences. Send in caravans of "Humanitarian Aid" that Ukraine didn't ask for. Crickets.. Then they just get on their media and deny everything. Its har…

I was more referring to the moral aspect of real-time spectatorship.

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#129
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it that the Russian propaganda so strong So you are just listening to the propaganda from the other side. And you think you are right? > What I am wondering is when Russia will completely take over Ukraine This is not about this. Things are not black and white. The situation there is extremely complex.

Would you say this map is propaganda? By who? The Ukrainian government? The one that can't get it's shit together to oppose this invasion, or really do much of anything managed to set up a whole bunch of very credible looking Twitter accounts, faked NATO satellite photos/reports, etc.? Ukraine has no propaganda because Ukraine doesn't have much of anything. These reports are very far from perfect, but they do seem to…

The propaganda is usually about how things are interpreted and portrayed not the facts themselves (e.g. offensive/defensive attack).

Re: Live map of Russia advancing into Ukraine

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's hard to support either Ukraine or Russia - you definitely can't believe what either have to say. Ukraine is still having protests in Kiev, and calling for impeachment of the person they just fought to have put in place there... we can't cry foul at Russia arms/tanks showing up, considering what we give to Israel et al. also, considering Putin's track record, this is too brute force for him. he does things in suc…

The situation in Ukraine is complicated, I agree. However, I believe Ukraine has the right to deal with their internal problems internally. This is like China saying "well, there are protests in DC, so let's roll the tanks right in and clean this mess up for them." > we can't cry foul at Russia arms/tanks showing up, considering what we give to Israel et al. also, considering Putin's track record, this is too brute f…

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