Live data from Hacker News

I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

washingtonpost.com

11–20 of 74 posts

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#11

You might get the impression that the author studied engineering (" I studied engineering, not English... ") or perhaps computer science (" ...graduated at the top of my class in computer science... ") whereas a quick look at his LinkedIn profile shows that he studied Management Information Systems[0] which, as far as I can tell, is a non-degree along the same lines as "Marketing" or "Media and Journalism" i.e. light…

MIS programs are glorified IT training--which is fine, if you're good at what you do. University of Houston runs a decent degree program in MIS, and they can place graduates.

Had the author wanted us to actually feel bad for them, maybe they should've linked a github.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#12

Reading the article raised tangential questions for me: How comfortable is it for someone who's not a programmer by temperament or interest to get a computer science degree in college? Or, alternately, what percentage of computer science grads simply aren't programmers? I've never really thought about this but now I'm wondering!

To pass any decent CS course you need to at least be able to program, but outside of maybe a few group projects the programs that you write won't be very large so you don't have to be an expert in TDD, version control or any frameworks.

In the UK at least once you get into the 2nd/3rd year of the degree you get to select a larger number of the modules that you study. So it's possible to choose modules with lower programming content which might be focused on theory or on business type subjects.

Most universities here offer a sister degree to CS which is focused on business computing/project management and has substantially less programming.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#14

You might get the impression that the author studied engineering (" I studied engineering, not English... ") or perhaps computer science (" ...graduated at the top of my class in computer science... ") whereas a quick look at his LinkedIn profile shows that he studied Management Information Systems[0] which, as far as I can tell, is a non-degree along the same lines as "Marketing" or "Media and Journalism" i.e. light…

Penn State has a college of engineering and a college of business. It seems like it would be pretty easy to tell which one you were in, and if you went to the business school, you wouldn't say "I studied engineering."

Although to be honest, the only place it says "engineering" is in the headline, which editors often mess with.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#15

You might get the impression that the author studied engineering (" I studied engineering, not English... ") or perhaps computer science (" ...graduated at the top of my class in computer science... ") whereas a quick look at his LinkedIn profile shows that he studied Management Information Systems[0] which, as far as I can tell, is a non-degree along the same lines as "Marketing" or "Media and Journalism" i.e. light…

That's a big difference. I wondered what possible computer languages that he could have studied recently in school that he couldn't get work in today, and why he was talking about the industry software he learned in school. He seems a little young to have done a pascal or scheme CS program.

The only applications I learned in CS/EE school were POSIX, the Microchip assembler IDE, and EAGLE. For every other one, I was on my own.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#16
post #5

"Maybe it’s a crazy idea, but if you’re going to spend all that money for a college education, shouldn’t you expect to learn real-world skills from people who know what they’re doing?" Maybe it's a crazy idea, but universities are not, and were never intended to be, career training centers. Helping you get a job is just not the mission of these institutions. And it's just as well; it would be highly unfortunate for t…

The problem highlighted by the article seems to be that companies are no longer so interested in hiring raw material and then providing training in angular.js or whatever but expect to hire people who already have those skills.

Anecdotally, I'd say that of my CS class maybe only 5% did any serious programming work outside of class.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#17
post #5

"Maybe it’s a crazy idea, but if you’re going to spend all that money for a college education, shouldn’t you expect to learn real-world skills from people who know what they’re doing?" Maybe it's a crazy idea, but universities are not, and were never intended to be, career training centers. Helping you get a job is just not the mission of these institutions. And it's just as well; it would be highly unfortunate for t…

You articulated perfectly exactly what I was thinking.

I realize it is a popular idea among society - that college is a career training center - but that is patently false.

It is an unfortunate idea too, because it leads to lots of people wasting thousands of dollars on an education they won't ever use in their career just for the sake of having the piece of paper they get at the end.

> Besides, if you're not doing any hacking in your free time outside of class anyway, you're probably not cut out for this career.

Bingo.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#18

You might get the impression that the author studied engineering (" I studied engineering, not English... ") or perhaps computer science (" ...graduated at the top of my class in computer science... ") whereas a quick look at his LinkedIn profile shows that he studied Management Information Systems[0] which, as far as I can tell, is a non-degree along the same lines as "Marketing" or "Media and Journalism" i.e. light…

Nice catch. Someone in the comments section pointed out that the WaPo actually listed MIS as one of their "most unemployable majors." (Is that irony on some level?)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/26/t...

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#19
> 47 percent of the technology jobs in New York City no longer require any college education at all.

I've done a lot of hiring over the years and recently in NYC. I can say in general I've always hired for Attitude and Aptitude. I can teach you anything if you have the right Attitude. I can't teach you to have a good Attitude and I can't make you have a better Aptitude.

One very real challenge in NYC is that big players are soaking up most of tech talent and there is a ground war between financial technology companies and other start-ups. That pressure has caused companies to go back to the drawing board on how they qualify candidates. For a while recruiters wouldn’t even look at a person without seeing some lofty education background in a resume. Now they’re looking for the scrappy problem solver that might be savvy based on their recent work experience.

I find this interesting because when I started in technology 30 years ago I had a hard time hiring for my companies and developed this “Attitude+Aptitude” concept with my teams. Over time it seemed like it was getting harder for people to get into technology jobs because it became accepted principle that you had to hire people with CS degrees to ensure success. Of course that was BS when it happened and I’ve always fought against it over the years. One of the best things for me about hiring in NYC was being able to tell the recruiting team what I was looking for and to tell them to stop looking for just CS degrees.

Recently I took a position as CTO in a San Francisco HQ’d start-up. I’ve been talking to my engineering team on how we filter candidates, again I’m preaching A+A but its clear they’ve been taught to look for CS degrees and Math majors. I’m working with them to broaden their thinking. I think this is an example that in general people are lazy about hiring and they’ll use anything they can as an excuse to not invest in finding out if a candidate is the right person. It’s tough, we’re all busy and have yet another meeting to run to or another customer call to deal with. It’s easy to think hiring is a pain and distraction from what you’re doing today. But, let’s be clear, the single most important thing you can do is scale your teams and if you don’t hire they’ll never scale and you’ll fail. To me the most important thing you can do in a company is hire well. The second most important thing is fire well, let people go if they’re not working out. You’re not doing them any favors and in the end their life will be better if they can find a place they fit in and can be successful and your world will be more successful if you focus on building a team that is a well oiled machine that smashes through problems like a hot knife through butter.

Re: I studied engineering, not English. I still can't find a job

#20
post #5

"Maybe it’s a crazy idea, but if you’re going to spend all that money for a college education, shouldn’t you expect to learn real-world skills from people who know what they’re doing?" Maybe it's a crazy idea, but universities are not, and were never intended to be, career training centers. Helping you get a job is just not the mission of these institutions. And it's just as well; it would be highly unfortunate for t…

"universities are not, and were never intended to be, career training centers"

The professional vocational degrees like engineering, medicine and law are intended exactly for career training. They are usually certified by practitioner guilds, for example.

You are quite right about computer science, but that is not a vocational professional program.

The OP studied engineering.

(edit: reading down a bit, someone spotted that OP studied Management Information Systems, which may or may not be engineering as generally understood.)

Post reply on HN