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The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

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Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#51

Post by Soyuz »

mpweiher wrote: post #43
toyg wrote: post #7

You can't make this stuff up. According to TFA: 1. CIA created black propaganda in USSR linking Soviets and international terrorists to foment dissent in Russia. 2. Somebody picked it up from outside and wrote a book about Soviet-terrorism links. 3. CIA director read the book, took it seriously, freaked out, lobbied for more powers. 4. CIA and NSA got more powers. It's clearly not the first time in history that an in…

As retold by Adam Curtis in the excellent BBC three-parter "The Power of Nightmares": 3a. CIA people told new director, "er, boss, that was actually us". 3b. CIA director does not believe his own people. And of course the whole "Team B" episode (Rumsfeld etc.), where the complete lack of evidence that the Soviets had was reinterpreted to mean they MUST OBVIOUSLY HAVE and perfect secrecy, otherwise how could we not ha…

That was wonderful documentary. I will watch it. Thanks

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#52

Post by Soyuz »

daigoba66 wrote: post #32

I recommend that anyone interested in the topic watch this film: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/united-states-of-sec... It's incredibly detailed, though focusing primarily on executive action post 2011.

That page has full of very important documentaries.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#53

Post by lotsofmangos »

XorNot wrote: post #50
lotsofmangos wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a look at what you had greyed out, lets see... not trusting aspects of textsecure keeping encryption on all the time argument about billing bad reviews on yelp not liking lighttable ok, whether there is a need to hide political speech from the NSA. I don't think your claim stands up of it being the only topic. edit - why are you bothering making claims like this in a medium where the source material is immediat…

Of 5 examples you managed to get 3/5 having something to do with the NSA or related matters (encryption, which got explicitly tied to the NSA in that exact comment). I would question why you think this is a "gotcha" given that I know how far back my post history goes (further then the initial Snowden disclosures for example), and more or less gave up on these topic-threads for exactly this reason. Which circles aroun…

So I was being somehow unfair in checking your post history, when you explicitly said to check your post history?

Next five before that are:

turning off power in nuclear plant

bitcoin funds transfer

advice on drinking water

theories on OSS

encryption of metadata

This isn't a 'gotcha', just pointing out that you are repeatedly bullshitting about things that are easily verifiable.

And idly wondering why.

edit - Hang on.

After all your fucking winging about how fucking oppressed you feel, on the two things you cited (NSA/Snowden) you get far more upvotes than downvotes on your comments.

https://hn.algolia.com/?q=xornot+snowden#!/comment/forever/0...

https://hn.algolia.com/?q=xornot+nsa#!/comment/forever/0/xor...

I call Shenanigans.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#54

Post by grrowl »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #44
bakhy wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about human rights. "All men are created equal." Of course the US government must only bow to its own people, and only US citizens can lead its policy, that is perfectly understandable. But we all deserve basic human rights and a country that is one of their biggest champions should, for the sake of its credibility, not ignore that! It would be ideal if some oversight existed for ALL such surveillance. With all…

I pay my government to spy on people in other countries to make sure they are not going to hurt me. And, more to the point, they aren't going to put in motion things that are could conceivably hurt me or those I care about. I hate the security state, but I'm okay with that. We've got hundred of millions of people here. There are billions of people in the world. It makes sense to me to spy on all the folks in other co…

I'd like to add the emphasis:

> It makes sense to me to spy on all the folks in other countries.

I'm not American, but I do live in a Five Eyes nation. I've had to come to terms that all my online correspondence for over a decade is stored in some data farm somewhere, for the sole purpose of incriminating me or someone I know.

I'm not at all a terrorist, I don't infringe on the privacy or comfort of others, and yet I am targeted under the banner "Not American". I'm at a loss of words to explain how violated and helpless I feel, and how deplorable such an act is.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#55

Post by lotsofmangos »

Dolimiter wrote: post #49
XorNot wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you don't tow the party line on HN you'll be downvoted no matter what. Frankly, go check my post history on the matter if you want. The only topic on which I manage to accumulate downvotes is Snowden/NSA related. Doesn't much matter what the content or argument or tone is or was. Though I do chuckle at "disprove the speculation".

"The only topic on which I manage to accumulate downvotes is Snowden/NSA related." Indeed, I got -40 karma on this story. Dissenting opinions are not tolerated on NSA stories. Therefore people who do not agree with the HN consensus "self-censor", and a vicious circle is created, with only a single narrative displayed.

I dunno, I have got a fair amount of imaginary internet points on here before for suggesting that there is a good chance that Snowden is still working for the NSA, which isn't exactly the popular opinion.

edit - well ok, 4 :) but it didn't get hammered down

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#56

Post by CWuestefeld »

coldtea wrote: post #28
bakhy wrote: post #5

The same offensive narrative repeats itself. - The government is bulk collecting data on foreigners. - Meh... - They're also incidentally spying on US citizens in the processs. - SAY WHAT?! If the USA could try to acknowledge the human rights of non-US citizens, that would be really nice.

Non-US citizens are considered less than humans. To be fair, the same holds to some degree also for lots of kinds of US citizens/residents (blacks, latinos, native americans, etc).

The race card isn't playable here. The computers collecting the data don't know what race the people being monitored belong to.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#57

Post by amirmc »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #44
bakhy wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about human rights. "All men are created equal." Of course the US government must only bow to its own people, and only US citizens can lead its policy, that is perfectly understandable. But we all deserve basic human rights and a country that is one of their biggest champions should, for the sake of its credibility, not ignore that! It would be ideal if some oversight existed for ALL such surveillance. With all…

I pay my government to spy on people in other countries to make sure they are not going to hurt me. And, more to the point, they aren't going to put in motion things that are could conceivably hurt me or those I care about. I hate the security state, but I'm okay with that. We've got hundred of millions of people here. There are billions of people in the world. It makes sense to me to spy on all the folks in other co…

> "It makes sense to me to spy on all the folks in other countries. I don't see how else you would honestly do a good job of governing."

You've equated spying on me with good governance. This is fallacious (as well as offensive). I am not a threat to you or your country. Targeted surveillance is one thing but collating data on everyone just because you can is wrong. In some sense it flips the 'innocent until proven guilty' the other way around (I'm foreign, therefore I'm guilty of being foreign and should be watched).

What you've advocated for is simply a digital arms race where states vacuum up whatever data they can, as fast as they can, on everyone they can. If the states are friendly, then they can simply share all that information with each other. Everyone is 'foreign' to someone else so ultimately, everyone loses.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#58

Post by CWuestefeld »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #44
bakhy wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about human rights. "All men are created equal." Of course the US government must only bow to its own people, and only US citizens can lead its policy, that is perfectly understandable. But we all deserve basic human rights and a country that is one of their biggest champions should, for the sake of its credibility, not ignore that! It would be ideal if some oversight existed for ALL such surveillance. With all…

I pay my government to spy on people in other countries to make sure they are not going to hurt me. And, more to the point, they aren't going to put in motion things that are could conceivably hurt me or those I care about. I hate the security state, but I'm okay with that. We've got hundred of millions of people here. There are billions of people in the world. It makes sense to me to spy on all the folks in other co…

Whether it makes sense isn't the issue. The question is whether it's morally right.

For the safety of myself and my family, it probably makes sense for me to shoot anyone who comes near my house (at least in the short term - but I think your logic also only works in the short term, as current world affairs shows). But I think we'll all agree that I shouldn't do this.

To ensure my own lifestyle I should also cheat on my taxes, sneak items out of the grocery store in the bottom of my cart, take credit for other people's ideas at work, and plenty of other things for which the chances of, or cost of, getting caught is low. Nevertheless, these are things that I ought not to do.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#59

Post by pessimizer »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #56
coldtea wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-US citizens are considered less than humans. To be fair, the same holds to some degree also for lots of kinds of US citizens/residents (blacks, latinos, native americans, etc).

The race card isn't playable here. The computers collecting the data don't know what race the people being monitored belong to.

The computers are created and operated by people. Computers don't decide anything.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#60

Post by pessimizer »

lotsofmangos wrote: post #53
XorNot wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of 5 examples you managed to get 3/5 having something to do with the NSA or related matters (encryption, which got explicitly tied to the NSA in that exact comment). I would question why you think this is a "gotcha" given that I know how far back my post history goes (further then the initial Snowden disclosures for example), and more or less gave up on these topic-threads for exactly this reason. Which circles aroun…

So I was being somehow unfair in checking your post history, when you explicitly said to check your post history? Next five before that are: turning off power in nuclear plant bitcoin funds transfer advice on drinking water theories on OSS encryption of metadata This isn't a 'gotcha', just pointing out that you are repeatedly bullshitting about things that are easily verifiable. And idly wondering why. edit - Hang on…

XorNot's being downvoted a lot, and if it's for having an unpopular opinion, one gets to be a victimized martyr screaming out truth in a sea of groupthink. If it's because a lack of reasoning or justification within arguments completely based in innuendo and sarcasm, then the downvotes are deserved.

Which would you choose, if you were forced to rationalize yourself rather than change your behavior?

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