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Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

theguardian.com

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Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#31

Post by snogglethorpe »

eloisant wrote: post #26
snogglethorpe wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at Japan, which generally has much looser zoning practices, it's managed to do much, much, better. It has sprawl and excess road construction too, but the sprawl is much more transit-oriented, and Japan has generally done a far better job avoiding the worst stupidities of U.S. post-war development. I'm sure there are many interacting reason for this, e.g. Japan's poverty in the decades after the war meant…

It may also be because in Japan space is very constrained, while China is a huge country with a lot available space - just like US.

I don't think space is really such a factor at the scale of a single city in many cases. Although China has a lot more land should it choose to build new cities or whatever, what matters more for existing cities is land in close proximity to them (to the point where transportation becomes the limiting factor).

Tokyo, for instance, has plenty of relatively empty space around it even today; it isn't severely geographically constrained in the same way that Hong Kong or Manhattan are.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#32

Post by CalRobert »

jrapdx3 wrote: post #22
hueving wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult to implement any kind of useful public transit that would obviate the need to drive everywhere.

Well, of course not. I mean public transportation couldn't cover every section of a region, but it could serve major hubs well enough to reduce automotive use and reduce its downsides. For almost 40 years Portland Oregon has been developing light rail all over the metro region. Rail has been extended to the major districts within a 10 to 15 mile radius of downtown. (Which is a good share of the "spread" that the regi…

If you build transportation it can define what the "region" is. Units can sell for more near transit, so people build there.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#33

Post by crapshoot101 »

nichtich wrote: post #6

I've heard about failed city planning a lot, and I wonder is there a good example somewhere? like a booming city with more than 5 million population that have "good" city plan? which city is best in this regard?

Singapore is perhaps the most efficient city on the planet, albeit at the cost of occasionally feeling a bit "sterile" in some ways.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#34

Post by gurkendoktor »

reedlaw wrote: post #24

I live in Hangzhou and they are already addressing these problems. For example, there is a network of public bike stations. To use a bike, you make a 200 yuan deposit on a public transportation card. The first hour bike rental is free. After that it starts at 1 yuan for the second hour and goes up from there. The card also works for buses (a ride costs 2-4 yuan) using your available balance. After riding a bus, the f…

> I live in Hangzhou and they are already addressing these problems. For example, there is a network of public bike stations.

Do people use these in your experience? I've noticed them pop up all over Germany and then Taiwan too, but I found it hard to spot anyone but tourists riding public bikes. I always wonder if these are simply prestige projects to impress green-minded citizens (like myself).

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#35

Post by skrebbel »

gurkendoktor wrote: post #34
reedlaw wrote: post #24

I live in Hangzhou and they are already addressing these problems. For example, there is a network of public bike stations. To use a bike, you make a 200 yuan deposit on a public transportation card. The first hour bike rental is free. After that it starts at 1 yuan for the second hour and goes up from there. The card also works for buses (a ride costs 2-4 yuan) using your available balance. After riding a bus, the f…

> I live in Hangzhou and they are already addressing these problems. For example, there is a network of public bike stations. Do people use these in your experience? I've noticed them pop up all over Germany and then Taiwan too, but I found it hard to spot anyone but tourists riding public bikes. I always wonder if these are simply prestige projects to impress green-minded citizens (like myself).

In the Netherlands, most train stations have a bike station like that, and it seems to be quite a success. 4 years ago, seeing someone on such an "OV-fiets" (public transit bike) was an oddity, now it's very common. Doing the last mile by bike beats buses and trams big time, IMO. No waiting, no sitting next to sweaty people, no thinking, planning - just go.

It probably helps that biking is already a strong element of Dutch culture, but if I'm not mistaken the Chinese bike a lot too so I guess it could work just as well.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#36

Post by nkoren »

A very simplistic and skewed article. As per its usual modus operandi, China is pursuing all options simultaneously. Which means that in addition to building hideous sprawling automotive-dependent suburbs, they're building the largest and most sophisticated urban and regional rail system in the world, and pursuing initiatives such as the Chengdu car-free city (http://weburbanist.com/2013/02/11/car-free-city-china-builds...) which are vastly more progressive than anything the rest of the world has attempted.

Portland is a great city by American standards, but its public transit mode-share for all trips in the metropolitan region still hovers around 4% -- with an additional ~2% coming from cycles -- making Portland ~94% dependent on private cars. (Note: you'll see statistics claiming a much higher mode share for Portland; this is done by excluding the other municipalities which account for >70% of the population in the metropolitan region, as well as by excluding the >60% of trips that are non-commuting trips). China is already doing much better than that, so it would be a shame if Portland were its target.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#37

Post by w1ntermute »

jlmendezbonini wrote: post #10
martythemaniak wrote: post #7

The short, glib answer is "The same reason teenagers don't learn from their elders' mistakes". The longer answer is a combination of: - poor people want what rich people have. And if they can't afford the substance (private country estate), they'll still get the style (McMansion). They particularly want last generation's rich people's things, as this generation's rich people's things are have not gained widespread po…

>- suburban sprawl has low up-front costs with real costs coming in decades later, as North American suburbs are starting to experience today Would you mind elaborating more on this? More specifically about the cost the North American suburbs are starting to experience. thanks

This EconTalk podcast does a good job of explaining how the infrastructure costs American suburbs are experiencing now weren't something that was anticipated when they were constructed: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/05/charles_marohn.html

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#38

Post by [deleted] »

sampo wrote: post #9
nichtich wrote: post #6

I've heard about failed city planning a lot, and I wonder is there a good example somewhere? like a booming city with more than 5 million population that have "good" city plan? which city is best in this regard?

> I've heard about failed city planning a lot, and I wonder is there a good example somewhere? Cities with functional public transport and walkable neighborhoods: Tokyo, Seoul, London, New York City, Paris, Berlin. Maybe also Madrid and Singapore, but I don't know much about them. Edit: Maybe Osaka and Nagoya, too (I don't know much about them either). All these have over 5 million population.

[deleted]

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#39

Post by thorin »

The main problem I have here in the UK is that I live in a suburban area but have excellent train, bus, tram, road links into our nearest city and several other local cities.

Every job I've expressed an interest in recently has an office outside of the main centre, normally near a major road junction. This makes the office inaccessible by public transport and much easier to get to by car. These are IT jobs in different industry sectors: retail, defence, finance, utilities etc.

I suppose this is due to the price of land and availability of office space out of town. There is no incentive for most of these companies to be in a city centre.

This is the major reason I'm likely to continue to drive to work. At the right time of day it takes 20 mins to drive, proabably over 1.5 hours by public transport - a mixture of train, bus, walk and much more expensive. How dissappointing!

Of course this isn't an issue in London, I'm talking about provincial towns and cities.

Re: Why haven't China's cities learned from America's mistakes?

#40

Post by [deleted] »

martythemaniak wrote: post #7

The short, glib answer is "The same reason teenagers don't learn from their elders' mistakes". The longer answer is a combination of: - poor people want what rich people have. And if they can't afford the substance (private country estate), they'll still get the style (McMansion). They particularly want last generation's rich people's things, as this generation's rich people's things are have not gained widespread po…

[deleted]
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