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The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

arstechnica.com

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Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#31

Post by microtonal »

teekert wrote: post #15
tinco wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because for non-US countries nothing has changed. It's been a publicly known fact that the US spies on non-US citizens by monitoring internet traffic for over 20 years. Ask any hacker aged over 24. There's simply hardly anything worth being surprised about as a foreign national. If you asked anyone in The Netherlands 10 years ago if they thought their e-mail on Hotmail or GMail was monitored by authorities in the U.S…

I agree, I find it way more shocking that my government (the Netherlands) is so laid back about all this than the "revelation" that Americans care about America spying on Americans. Yes, the dutch government announced a Dropbox alternative that is open source ( http://tweakers.net/nieuws/97793/overheid-werkt-aan-opensour... ) but I believe it is the wrong approach. They should publicly denounce NSA spying and swear t…

It's not that they are afraid, it's that they are in bed together. Dutch intelligence relies on US intelligence and visa versa for 'the war on terror'. The situation in Germany is similar, the German government was only offended when it turned out that they tapped Merkel's phone. When it were regular citizens, most politicians shrugged their shoulders, some put on a small show for their electorate.

One of the few institutions that stuck their neck out for their citizens is the European Parliament. Unfortunately, a substantial portion of the EU is now so enamoured with nationalism that they want to reduce the power of the EU or even leave the EU.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#33

Post by shiven »

XorNot wrote: post #24
lotsofmangos wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you find any information on the internals of the NSA that isn't hearsay from a disgruntled ex-employee? Current employees who are happy and fulfilled in their work in the security services don't tend to say all that much to the press.

The structure of every single one of these stories is a single slide or page or quote, containing maybe less then 50 words maximum. From there, wild speculation then goes on to breathlessly exclaim about what this really proves, while failing to actually support any of the assertions. For good measure toss in some wilful blindness about the point of surveillance, mechanics of law enforcement, collective action proble…

Pray, share it if you have anything that can disprove the wild speculation.

Hysterical speculation is to be expected when dealing with the doings of an arm of the government that is willfully shrouded in secrecy. The leaks so far have only confirmed what was being called "tin-foil hattery" until pre-Snowden.

If you are so concerned about subduing rampant speculation, how about showing up with proofs to the contrary instead of ad hominems and downvote baiting?

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#34

Post by duncan_bayne »

Dolimiter wrote: post #12
duncan_bayne wrote: post #2

Interesting article, but it's a pity they chose to lead with weasel words. "One thing sits at the heart of what many consider a surveillance state within the US today."

If you're wondering why you are being downvoted... The readership at Hacker News firmly believes that the US is a surveillance state. Stories are chosen and upvoted which confirm this worldview. Dissenting opinions are downvoted. If you're looking for a reasoned evidence-based discussion of the NSA, then choose a different website.

That was actually my point - it is a surveillance state, but the author of the piece lacked the balls to say it directly.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#35

Post by atmosx »

microtonal wrote: post #31
teekert wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I find it way more shocking that my government (the Netherlands) is so laid back about all this than the "revelation" that Americans care about America spying on Americans. Yes, the dutch government announced a Dropbox alternative that is open source ( http://tweakers.net/nieuws/97793/overheid-werkt-aan-opensour... ) but I believe it is the wrong approach. They should publicly denounce NSA spying and swear t…

It's not that they are afraid, it's that they are in bed together. Dutch intelligence relies on US intelligence and visa versa for 'the war on terror'. The situation in Germany is similar, the German government was only offended when it turned out that they tapped Merkel's phone. When it were regular citizens, most politicians shrugged their shoulders, some put on a small show for their electorate. One of the few ins…

The Merkel thing was just a political show for the up-coming elections IIRC. Anyway, we (the citizens) suffer the same fate no matter where we are, since we're using their services.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#37

Post by XorNot »

shiven wrote: post #33
XorNot wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The structure of every single one of these stories is a single slide or page or quote, containing maybe less then 50 words maximum. From there, wild speculation then goes on to breathlessly exclaim about what this really proves, while failing to actually support any of the assertions. For good measure toss in some wilful blindness about the point of surveillance, mechanics of law enforcement, collective action proble…

Pray, share it if you have anything that can disprove the wild speculation. Hysterical speculation is to be expected when dealing with the doings of an arm of the government that is willfully shrouded in secrecy. The leaks so far have only confirmed what was being called "tin-foil hattery" until pre-Snowden. If you are so concerned about subduing rampant speculation, how about showing up with proofs to the contrary i…

Because if you don't tow the party line on HN you'll be downvoted no matter what. Frankly, go check my post history on the matter if you want. The only topic on which I manage to accumulate downvotes is Snowden/NSA related.

Doesn't much matter what the content or argument or tone is or was.

Though I do chuckle at "disprove the speculation".

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#39

Post by lotsofmangos »

XorNot wrote: post #37
shiven wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pray, share it if you have anything that can disprove the wild speculation. Hysterical speculation is to be expected when dealing with the doings of an arm of the government that is willfully shrouded in secrecy. The leaks so far have only confirmed what was being called "tin-foil hattery" until pre-Snowden. If you are so concerned about subduing rampant speculation, how about showing up with proofs to the contrary i…

Because if you don't tow the party line on HN you'll be downvoted no matter what. Frankly, go check my post history on the matter if you want. The only topic on which I manage to accumulate downvotes is Snowden/NSA related. Doesn't much matter what the content or argument or tone is or was. Though I do chuckle at "disprove the speculation".

I had a look at what you had greyed out, lets see...

not trusting aspects of textsecure

keeping encryption on all the time

argument about billing bad reviews on yelp

not liking lighttable

ok, whether there is a need to hide political speech from the NSA.

I don't think your claim stands up of it being the only topic.

edit - why are you bothering making claims like this in a medium where the source material is immediately available?

This kind of tactic may work in spoken discussion, but here it just seems absurd.

Re: The executive order that led to mass spying, as told by NSA alumni

#40

Post by SyneRyder »

microtonal wrote: post #31
teekert wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I find it way more shocking that my government (the Netherlands) is so laid back about all this than the "revelation" that Americans care about America spying on Americans. Yes, the dutch government announced a Dropbox alternative that is open source ( http://tweakers.net/nieuws/97793/overheid-werkt-aan-opensour... ) but I believe it is the wrong approach. They should publicly denounce NSA spying and swear t…

It's not that they are afraid, it's that they are in bed together. Dutch intelligence relies on US intelligence and visa versa for 'the war on terror'. The situation in Germany is similar, the German government was only offended when it turned out that they tapped Merkel's phone. When it were regular citizens, most politicians shrugged their shoulders, some put on a small show for their electorate. One of the few ins…

I think Merkel deserves at least a little credit for speaking out in public, even if some of it was for the elections. When visiting Germany it was amazing how much news coverage there was about Snowden & how aware everyone was... you couldn't avoid it, his face was even on digital billboards in train stations.

It was markedly different to Australia, where the politicians almost all support it, it was a minor TV news story (certainly not the lead headline like in Germany), and most people just don't care or understand. Germans are understandably cynical, but I wish Germans would have more pride in their country, there are some things that Germany does so much better than other countries right now.

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