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America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

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Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#31

Post by 4chan4ever »

nearestneighbor wrote: post #30
nick-dap wrote: post #17

Two words. DREAM Act. http://dreamact.info I was brought to the United States by my parents at a very young age. In the process I have inherited the title of an "illegal immigrant" from my parents. The DREAM Act is a legislation 10 years in the making. We have thousands of enterpreneurs, scientists, engineers, nurses, doctors, talent in every field imaginable going to waste in the United States; living in the shadows…

I'm curious, how did you get in and through college (tuition, enrollment, etc.) without an ID or a bank account? I lived in NYC myself. Besides not having to drive, is it really a better place to be for undocumented immigrants?

Well I'll be the lone dissenting voice here. Downmod away...

First, I think illegal immigration is still ILLEGAL immigration and yes, the laws need to be reformed but until they are, let's not be too devious in how we aid and abet criminal behaviors.

Second and more to the point, anybody who's considering immigrating to the US of A (or Canada) for "technology" will face a rude awakening in another 5-10 years. You're immigrating to the wrong hemisphere. Now if you think you might be a good producer of trash reality TV then hey! Come on over. That's where America truly excels.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#32

Post by jacquesm »

4chan4ever wrote: post #31
nearestneighbor wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, how did you get in and through college (tuition, enrollment, etc.) without an ID or a bank account? I lived in NYC myself. Besides not having to drive, is it really a better place to be for undocumented immigrants?

Well I'll be the lone dissenting voice here. Downmod away... First, I think illegal immigration is still ILLEGAL immigration and yes, the laws need to be reformed but until they are, let's not be too devious in how we aid and abet criminal behaviors. Second and more to the point, anybody who's considering immigrating to the US of A (or Canada) for "technology" will face a rude awakening in another 5-10 years. You're…

I don't like to downmod to express my disagreement, so let me try to put it into words instead of the 'down arrow'.

I think that your stance is absolutely indefensible since the poster explicitly states that he came to America as a young child and 'inherited' his status as an illegal from his parents.

So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law (if there is one thing you do not do as an illegal it is breaking ANY laws, since that can lead to instant deportation) simply by walking around on the street there is a risk.

If you have been in a country for as long as you remember and you have been a productive element in that society then by any definition you are part of that society, and not a criminal.

To pretend it is otherwise because of a bunch of stupid pieces of paper is putting the horse behind the cart.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#33

Post by _ck_ »

padmapper wrote: post #23
_ck_ wrote: post #16

I won't even pretend to begin to understand the politics behind all this but I am confused - in a nation of over 300 MILLION people, we don't have enough skilled workers? Seriously? I'm not against immigration at all if people want a better life and they somehow believe it's here, but we also have double digit unemployment. I'm definitely missing part of the picture.

There are 300 million people in the US, but in the very specific specialties at the cutting edge of science and tech, every person is significant, and can't really be substituted for by another. Letting in the best of the best is all kinds of win. See "Brain Drain/Gain": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_drain Albert Einstein is one of the more famous examples, but there are quite a few others.

I guess I am stumbling on the "worker" part of "skilled workers" needed. We're not importing inventors or CEOs (or "Albert Einsteins"), we're importing labor, people who know already how to create (technical) widgets from items A+B+C and there aren't enough of thees knowledgeable people already in the USA who know how to make A+B+C into widgets?

So these people are skilled in that they learned how to make these widgets in another country outside the USA, but they want to create the widgets here instead? Did they stop making the widgets in the other country? Does it pay more to make widgets here? Why the USA specifically?

(What exactly does the USA produce anymore anyway? Nothing is made here so what are they making?)

Again, I'm not against immigration, but somehow I think this is a smokescreen. If someone wants to come to the USA to go to school, to live, I say welcome, we've got plenty of room, plenty of food, and we need the taxes paid. But let's not make up reasons to come here?

There are thousands of college students graduating in the USA each year who are unemployed. If they don't have the exact skills needed I dare say a 4 year degree proves they can learn the skill rather quickly?

I guess I need real-world examples to understand this better. I still don't understand why college students aren't being trained for these critical jobs, especially if they are in a tech sector which is always attractive.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#34

Post by RyanMcGreal »

4chan4ever wrote: post #31
nearestneighbor wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, how did you get in and through college (tuition, enrollment, etc.) without an ID or a bank account? I lived in NYC myself. Besides not having to drive, is it really a better place to be for undocumented immigrants?

Well I'll be the lone dissenting voice here. Downmod away... First, I think illegal immigration is still ILLEGAL immigration and yes, the laws need to be reformed but until they are, let's not be too devious in how we aid and abet criminal behaviors. Second and more to the point, anybody who's considering immigrating to the US of A (or Canada) for "technology" will face a rude awakening in another 5-10 years. You're…

The attitude expressed in the first part of your post is the most likely reason for the second part of your post to come true.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#35

Post by stonemetal »

jacquesm wrote: post #32
4chan4ever wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'll be the lone dissenting voice here. Downmod away... First, I think illegal immigration is still ILLEGAL immigration and yes, the laws need to be reformed but until they are, let's not be too devious in how we aid and abet criminal behaviors. Second and more to the point, anybody who's considering immigrating to the US of A (or Canada) for "technology" will face a rude awakening in another 5-10 years. You're…

I don't like to downmod to express my disagreement, so let me try to put it into words instead of the 'down arrow'. I think that your stance is absolutely indefensible since the poster explicitly states that he came to America as a young child and 'inherited' his status as an illegal from his parents. So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law (if there is one thing you do not do as an i…

  So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law ... been a productive element in that society
If he has been a productive member of society then he has broken several laws around the employment of illegals, including tax evasion. It as if he broke in to your house and has been living in your attic. He contributed to the upkeep of the house by fixing a holes in the roof so that his bed would stay dry. Now that he has lived in your attic for so long he demands ownership since he doesn't remember living anywhere else and doesn't have anywhere else to go.

  ...in that society then by any definition you are part of that society
No, you are member of society when you live by the rules of that society, and take your punishment when you violate their rules. Doing what you want and breaking whichever rules you want because they don't apply to you doesn't make you member of society. That is not to say the law is correct, but violating them because you don't like them makes you a criminal not a citizen. If he were practicing Civil Disobedience then there would be a political component to his action instead of entitlement whining.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#36

Post by jacquesm »

stonemetal wrote: post #35
jacquesm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like to downmod to express my disagreement, so let me try to put it into words instead of the 'down arrow'. I think that your stance is absolutely indefensible since the poster explicitly states that he came to America as a young child and 'inherited' his status as an illegal from his parents. So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law (if there is one thing you do not do as an i…

So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law ... been a productive element in that society If he has been a productive member of society then he has broken several laws around the employment of illegals, including tax evasion. It as if he broke in to your house and has been living in your attic. He contributed to the upkeep of the house by fixing a holes in the roof so that his bed would s…

If your parents take you along on their illegal trip as a child that does not make YOU a criminal, it makes you a victim, but the system will treat you as though you are a criminal.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#37

Post by giardini »

The argument: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

But even without immigration reform America _is_ the world's tech leader. So how did we ever get that way without that "immigration reform"?

Obviously someone's pushing his own agenda. This article is from the corporations' point of view; other articles take the workers' view.

Corporations want cheaper workers but workers want higher wages. The usual struggle. Nothing new here.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#38

Post by giardini »

joe_the_user wrote: post #18
netsp wrote: post #10

My issue with ideas like the "startup visa" is that they require restrictions and bureaucracies. You end up with more draconian restrictions on immigrants causing resentment. You end up with more distortion of market signals. What happens when a startup goes under? Visa cancelled? Well that's reason to pour more resources in or just pretend it's still alive. What happens if they do some consulting on the side to stay…

Quite a few people have mentioned Canada's skills-based system. This sounds far and away better and clearer than the unmanageable "Founder's Visa". BUT REGARDLESS, America will not be "The World's Tech Leader" with American elementary and secondary schools in the shape that they presently are in (and more multiple choice testing isn't it either..). Funny how this never gets mentioned in these "Tech Leader" debates (c…

joe_the_user says: "America will not be 'The World's Tech Leader' with American elementary and secondary schools in the shape that they presently are in"

Unconvincing.

Despite the current state of affairs in elementary/secondary schooling the US graduates more Ph.D.'s in most fields than can find suitable jobs Excluding occasional shortages there are more than enough excellent students in the US education pipeline to more than fill all advanced degree job openings in the US.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#39

Post by stonemetal »

jacquesm wrote: post #36
stonemetal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, even if he/she has done everything possible to stay clear of the law ... been a productive element in that society If he has been a productive member of society then he has broken several laws around the employment of illegals, including tax evasion. It as if he broke in to your house and has been living in your attic. He contributed to the upkeep of the house by fixing a holes in the roof so that his bed would s…

If your parents take you along on their illegal trip as a child that does not make YOU a criminal, it makes you a victim, but the system will treat you as though you are a criminal.

Age has no bearing on the legality of the action in question. So yes you are a criminal weather you are 6 months or 60 years old. I am pretty sure they treat you differently based on age though. I can't see them deporting a 6 month old without a care taker like they would an adult. I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to set up a mail relay to "leave" the country while you work on your citizenship papers. Nor would I be surprised to find out that it were quicker to get a Canadian citizenship and use that to apply for a US citizenship.

Re: America can't be the world's tech leader without immigration reform.

#40

Post by jacquesm »

stonemetal wrote: post #39
jacquesm wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your parents take you along on their illegal trip as a child that does not make YOU a criminal, it makes you a victim, but the system will treat you as though you are a criminal.

Age has no bearing on the legality of the action in question. So yes you are a criminal weather you are 6 months or 60 years old. I am pretty sure they treat you differently based on age though. I can't see them deporting a 6 month old without a care taker like they would an adult. I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to set up a mail relay to "leave" the country while you work on your citizenship papers. Nor…

> So yes you are a criminal weather you are 6 months or 60 years old.

We seem to have a different opinion on that.

Personally I think that any system - and any person - that can treat 6 months olds as criminals is seriously broken, and to be held in contempt.

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